Was there undue pressure to realease the game while not ready?

[Belissarius]

Victoria: One crash to desktop since i bought it.

HOI: NO crash to desktops(though some very funny things happening when first brought out ), needed the fixes, and more.

EU2: Fun game, millions of CTD, i mean almost every game i got one.

Strange, very strange.

Some people say they never got a single CTD with every game I've ever looked in their forum for and i actually beleive that some of these claims are true if not all. but to be fair, this doesnt mean that our claims that victoria had loads of CTD are untrue either. What cant be denied is that CTD bugs were fixed so the issue is real.

 

[Belissarius]

/snip

The choice was have the games which Paradox makes with patches or don't have them at all. With them we got the three greatest games I have ever played, and I don't limit myself to strategy games there. No patchs = shallower games.

Thats utter false. It isnt a either or situation. Most patches for critical bugs are fixed it a few patches they are not hard to find or fix so why are they in teh game on release?

 

[Belissarius]

I think some of you are extraordinarily critical, the games are not perfect. Have you even bothered to consider the scope of a game like Victoria? Please name one other empire building game that has the scope of Victoria in terms of religion, culture, politics, immigration, economy, and diplomacy? And the game is modable. Victoria makes Civilization look like tic-tac-toe. I have never had the game crash, unless of course I screwed up one of my own mods and created a code error.

Seriously, if the game is crashing have you even bothered to update your hardware drivers? Update your drivers, if the game is still crashing then post in the appropriate forum. But stop whining, no one wants to hear it! All you are doing is making Johan and company upset to the point were they will probably quit making these games, then what? I can't say that I blame them you pour your life's work into something and all you hear is complaints.

Oh bloody hell, dont try to switch blame. And dont tell me to be silient. Why is it the people want to silence anyone that doesnt go "WOO HOO, PARADOX?" Is it unreasonable to expect quality from the manufacturer? i dont think so.

 

[mcicet]

boring

 

[unmerged(21338)]

I always look at buying a game like going to a movie of sorts. If I play, enjoyably, for more than an hour for every dollar I spend then it was a success. EU2 got me down to pennies in terms of hours played, and HoI got me down to quarters on the hour (I have not actually tried to add it up, but I think I got my moneys worth from both). I have played Victoria a lot as well, and can honestly say I think I got what I paid for. Also I am fairly sure Victoria will be updated until it is just as good as it can be. Is there some issues with game balancing, and so forth? Sure there is, but if you look at how much EU2 changed since it was released you could say that they could have just made an expansion pac and bleed me dry.

 

[Belissarius]

Darn! I forgot to mention the manual. That was also unacceptable. If you don't have the money to include one in the box (paper costs) at *least* do a quick start manual with a detailed PDF. Sayin that the game is gonna' change is no excuse for not having a detailed manual in a strategy game (this is an age old customer complaint going back to the days of eight-bit graphics so failing is also in the unforgivable category).

In defence of paradox.

As it is well known i take paradox to task for its failings BUT as i understand the nature of he business the manual is not paradox's fault. The size of a manual is determined by the publisher they limit the number of pages and this ment that the manual wasnt large enough to be of any value.

Why would a publisher do this? Because they want to control the market so that they can publish the third party strategy guides. If the developing companies publish a really comprehensive maual there is less that a stragegy guild can offer and the less likely it will sell. So paradox cant be blamed for teh manual, lake of a tutorial well thats a different story.

 

[unmerged(6105)]

Thats utter false. It isnt a either or situation. Most patches for critical bugs are fixed it a few patches they are not hard to find or fix so why are they in teh game on release?

Nope, you are incorrect in your statement. The pressure to release a game is usually from the publisher side, but even if it was not that they have to release it some time as a company bleeds until they begin to get sell it. If any paradox game would come out perfectly refined then they would need one more year of production time, which is not financially viable. It would be between getting it like it is or not at all.

The inherent complexity of them gives us the situation where there can pretty much always be improvements. As it was, Victoria was fully playable and enjoyable at release.

 

[unmerged(14180)]

Hey, cool it guys.

I see merits on both sides here.

Just to put it quickly, i myself don't care too much about the releases knowing the patch status with Paradox games.....i have quite a few complaints now and again, but im honestly too much of an old buyer to let it worry me, apart from some of the later EU2 patches...... .

BUT, Belisarius has certainly got something right.....

IF Paradox wants to make sure they capture and retain the market to a level that is financially viable, then they must make sure that bugs are at a low level, HOI was bad in this regard on release, Vicky not so bad(Nothing bad in the bug area for me at all, only some small issues actually) but there have been some that have stated their dislike, and i suggest we see what they have to say before trying to kick them down.

Someone already came up with some good ideas:

Try to iron out all kinks regarding crashes, Freezes, etc as most important.

Provide a decent amount of good balancing as time requires.

Provide Patches for bug fixes AND Enhancement Files in 2 different downloads.

This allows those that wish to play with the current model in the first games be happy, and those that want the enhancements be happy.

Ok, lets say person A wants all crashes, freezes, slider fixes, Naval fixes and so on, but not radically change the way the economy works etc.....this should be addressed in the patch.
This doesn't affect the overall difficulty, justs makes sure everything works as per how it should.

Person B wants a harder game, they want a highly tweaked economic model, they want new things not described in the manual......These should come under another download titled Enhancement packs.

This was not my idea, but i forget who said it, but i second it as a bloody good idea.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Not wishing to express an opinion on whether it is a good idea or not but some observations:

1. When is a tweak a bug fix? To use one of your examples - is the naval combat revision a bug fix or a tweak. Is a balance issue a bug fix or a tweak?

2. MP play - the more variety in set ups the more difficulty there will be ever establishing a viable MP community

3. Testing - would the beta testers have to test two setup ups? One for vanilla settings without tweaks and one with tweaks.

4. Keeping the support going - with many different set ups it would become increasing difficult to provide a useful support function.

Besides - what I think people missed (although it has been said a few times) is that fundamentally 1.01 was not working the way the Johan and the game designers wanted it to. There was a significant bug in the way the world market was calculating production and consumption. This was the cause of probably 90% of the difficulty increase between 1.01 and 1.02. This bug would be very difficult for betas to spot as it would have needed a forensic investigation of the market mechanism without the guiding principles (which we still don't have an up to date copy of). So most of the complaints about difficulty would still have been made if it was a bug fix only patch.

If I interpret your post correctly what you are asking for is more distinction between difficulty levels i.e. make an easy game "easy" in most respects (like 1.01) and make the harder levels harder (like 1.02). This would be a more achievable outcome and perhaps a more logical goal for the testing process.

 

[unmerged(14180)]

Derek, i like your idea actually.

but let explain what i meant by the 2 differences.

Naval: Now, the Navy in Victoria, regarding the AI, has a certain flaw.
It refuses to get rid of old outmoded Warships, and build new ones that it has researched.... I think i can understand why this is happening, probably due to the AI not Destroying old units and making Room(economically) for more warships...Now im sure this is how the game is meant to work, hence why i put it in the 'patch' section.

Ok, the economy and its mathematics being wrong is one thing, but im certain, especially due to the factory setup right upon putting 1.02 on my computer, that the fixes incorporated are much harsher than what it was meant to be by revising the maths.

Otherwise surely there would have been a different amount of factories to compensate for the lack of goods on the WM, Firearms and cannon not being profitable, etc.

But your idea of difficulty is a good idea, Now, what changes would you propose for different difficulty levels?

 

[EUnderhill]

If I interpret your post correctly what you are asking for is more distinction between difficulty levels i.e. make an easy game "easy" in most respects (like 1.01) and make the harder levels harder (like 1.02). This would be a more achievable outcome and perhaps a more logical goal for the testing process.

I would prefer "difficulty levels" to be handled with an easier, safe-for-MP, balanced (artificially if need be) version as the current official release. Later could come an expansion pack for the grognards such as myself.

 

[Derek Pullem]

But your idea of difficulty is a good idea, Now, what changes would you propose for different difficulty levels?

Well - in my opinion (not Johan's and not Paradox's), alot of the affection felt by people for 1.01 was that it was relatively easy to set up a profitably industry. Some people found the idea of the entire economy being dedicated to luxury furniture & clothes and artillery a bit silly but people liked (with a few notable exceptions) fielding 600 divisions and 50 dreadnoughts against a similar sized AI. It was fun!

Most of this was down to the productivity of the POPS being out of whack with the intent. In 1.03 it will be possible to adjust the starting productivity of RGOs and factories directly so it should be relatively simple (by trial and error) to come up with an easy and very easy mode by multiplying up the productivity factors. This should allow people who want a fun game without too much work to still enjoy the flow of the game. We concentrated on getting the normal level balanced for 1.03. Difficulty changes were relatively minor.

So thats what I mean by adjusting the difficulty level. Easy should mean easy to play not necessarily easy to win. i.e. you shouldn't have to ask why my factories don't make a profit (although you might have to ask why your backside was being handed to you by the AI on the same level )

 

[Arado]

Well - in my opinion (not Johan's and not Paradox's), alot of the affection felt by people for 1.01 was that it was relatively easy to set up a profitably industry. Some people found the idea of the entire economy being dedicated to luxury furniture & clothes and artillery a bit silly but people liked (with a few notable exceptions) fielding 600 divisions and 50 dreadnoughts against a similar sized AI. It was fun!

Most of this was down to the productivity of the POPS being out of whack with the intent. In 1.03 it will be possible to adjust the starting productivity of RGOs and factories directly so it should be relatively simple (by trial and error) to come up with an easy and very easy mode by multiplying up the productivity factors. This should allow people who want a fun game without too much work to still enjoy the flow of the game. We concentrated on getting the normal level balanced for 1.03. Difficulty changes were relatively minor.

So thats what I mean by adjusting the difficulty level. Easy should mean easy to play not necessarily easy to win. i.e. you shouldn't have to ask why my factories don't make a profit (although you might have to ask why your backside was being handed to you by the AI on the same level )

YES!!! YES!!!! That's exactly what I wanted to hear. 1.03 is gonna be good. But please take your time and test it ad nauseum before you give it to us, otherwise we'll be back here whining.

Arado

 

[Derek Pullem]

YES!!! YES!!!! That's exactly what I wanted to hear. 1.03 is gonna be good. But please take your time and test it ad nauseum before you give it to us, otherwise we'll be back here whining.

Arado

Please read what I said carefully. 1.03 has not altered the difficulty settings but 1.03 will make available the tools to change the difficulty of all games in an easy text file. So you could agree to play with your mate with all the productivities raised by 50% or 100% or just increase the productivity for a few items like Sulphur, clothes, lumber etc. We think the game is good as it is in 1.03 normal but some people may not agree and will wish for a different set up. And I'm sure if there is a groundswell of opinion from users with regards to the best set-up that Paradox will listen to it in any future Victoria patches that are made.

 

[unmerged(24517)]

Please read what I said carefully. 1.03 has not altered the difficulty settings but 1.03 will make available the tools to change the difficulty of all games in an easy text file. So you could agree to play with your mate with all the productivities raised by 50% or 100% or just increase the productivity for a few items like Sulphur, clothes, lumber etc. We think the game is good as it is in 1.03 normal but some people may not agree and will wish for a different set up. And I'm sure if there is a groundswell of opinion from users with regards to the best set-up that Paradox will listen to it in any future Victoria patches that are made.

Oh I feel warm and fuzzy just reading that. You seriously brought tears to my eyes. I can't wait for 1.03. So much fun! Of course I will probably convince myself its going to be the best patch ever and then be disappointed when its only an awesome patch, but oh well, such is life.

 

[unmerged(14180)]

So let me get this straight, in the very easy modes you can make hundreds of divisions, get lots of money, etc.

In normal, have you guys gotten a good, nearish to historical abilities regarding Armed forces sizes?

What do YOU think of how 1.03 is going Derek? you like it?

 

[Derek Pullem]

So let me get this straight, in the very easy modes you can make hundreds of divisions, get lots of money, etc.

In normal, have you guys gotten a good, nearish to historical abilities regarding Armed forces sizes?

What do YOU think of how 1.03 is going Derek? you like it?

No, a vanilla 1.03 won't let you make hundreds of divisions and millions of pounds even in very easy mode.

But by changing the productivity factors in one text file you can achieve this if you wish

But this is a user mod (albeit a very easy one) right now.

[/IRON MAN MODE ON]

I liked 1.02

[/IRON MAN MODE OFF]

.......but 1.03 is better

 

[Kriegsspieler]

I liked 1.02

[/IRON MAN MODE OFF]

.......but 1.03 is better

'
Derek, you nasty tease! WHAT do you like better about 1.03?
BTW, I have always been a BIG fan of 1.02.

 

[Arado]

Please read what I said carefully. 1.03 has not altered the difficulty settings but 1.03 will make available the tools to change the difficulty of all games in an easy text file. So you could agree to play with your mate with all the productivities raised by 50% or 100% or just increase the productivity for a few items like Sulphur, clothes, lumber etc. We think the game is good as it is in 1.03 normal but some people may not agree and will wish for a different set up. And I'm sure if there is a groundswell of opinion from users with regards to the best set-up that Paradox will listen to it in any future Victoria patches that are made.

I wanted to applaud the changes in balance that you quoted and the ability to change PRODUCTION instead of just input. That is gonna be key for most of us. Many people like me were not happy with anorexic production like .03 Machine Parts. But balance was the primary thing I wanted to see. I'm sure 1.03 is gonna make alot of us happy.

Arado
"Take your time"

 

[Waffen9999]

EUII is more than 2 years old.

Hence well over a year old. So sue me for not looking up it's exact age The point is it's still being tinkered on and still has a loyal following