Was there talk at one point of removing Culture Workers?

[DeanTheDull]

I completely disagree. In what possible sense could bureaucrats said to be the primary force by which the cohesion of a people and of a culture is created. Unity unlocks traditions, and defines your empire. That being, at root, the work of bureaucracy is just nonsense to me.

The world is nonsensical.

Traditions in Stellaris are effectively policy outputs more than political sentiments, and both are enabled and executed by a bureaucracy. To support so much as a shared holiday you need a the coordination to teach it as a valuable thing, to reinforce (and not ban) it as something for society to enjoy, to set aside time, space, and resources (holidays, centers, ceremonies) for it to be done, and the countless supporting steps across the ceremony. Consider the current American policy/political interventions in West Coast shipping ports to get logistics to support Christmas.

Policy is ultimately developed by and executed through the bureaucracy. The more bureaucrats you have, the more regularly you can update your institutional policies.

 

[DeanTheDull]

I vaguely remember it being mentioned in a dev diary that as part of an Admin Cap / Empire Sprawl rework, Culture Workers might be removed and Bureaucrats might become the primary Unity-creating job.

I can't actually find where this was mentioned, but I have a lot of concerns about that approach.

I realise that "Culture Workers" is a very vague and ill-defined concept, but "Unity" to me is conceptually a measure of how "together" your people feel to one another. How coherent and shared their culture is, and their values are. How similar their vision of the galaxy and their vision of their own future is.

For me, it would be totally incoherent to have Bureaucrats creating this in MOST empires (for some it makes sense, ie. Byzantine Bureaucracy).

I don't really have a better solution, but I don't remember hearing anything since those plans were talked about, and I'm really hoping that's not the direction that things are going.

It's less that culture workers are removed, or bureaucrats will produce unity, and more that Bureaucrats will not be producing admin cap. Instead of raising admin cap, empires will spend unity to mitigate the effects of admin sprawl.

Nothing was put out about whether Bureaucrats would be the primary producers of unity, or if it would be culture workers. Or if one or the other would be removed. Or if culture workers would be a better bureaucrat, with a touch of science to help the bio/psionic ascenders out there, but balanced by cost.


As for Stellaris in particular, Stellaris is a command-control economy state-centric game. You play the state, not a person in the state. Everything that occurs is a result of a state-level decision (the player), with the closest to cultural pressures you face being your mechanical limitaations that vary by ethic or playstyle. But what the game calls culture workers are state-sanctioned culture worker, because it's the state who's building and managing their employment, and all the culture workers you have in the game inherently support the state's goals no matter what they are or change to be. They don't even affect government ethics attraction one way or another, which would at least either incentivize you to change ethics to what they lead towards, or punish you more if you are in violation of the state ethics. There are no natural free-thinking culture workers who are challenging your direction- all the ones that exist are supporting you.

There's a word for state-sanctioned culture workers who toe the government line, and that's propagandists. And they are just part of the government bureaucracy.

 

[Archon87]

It's less that culture workers are removed, or bureaucrats will produce unity, and more that Bureaucrats will not be producing admin cap. Instead of raising admin cap, empires will spend unity to mitigate the effects of admin sprawl.

Nothing was put out about whether Bureaucrats would be the primary producers of unity, or if it would be culture workers. Or if one or the other would be removed. Or if culture workers would be a better bureaucrat, with a touch of science to help the bio/psionic ascenders out there, but balanced by cost.


As for Stellaris in particular, Stellaris is a command-control economy state-centric game. You play the state, not a person in the state. Everything that occurs is a result of a state-level decision (the player), with the closest to cultural pressures you face being your mechanical limitaations that vary by ethic or playstyle. But what the game calls culture workers are state-sanctioned culture worker, because it's the state who's building and managing their employment, and all the culture workers you have in the game inherently support the state's goals no matter what they are or change to be. They don't even affect government ethics attraction one way or another, which would at least either incentivize you to change ethics to what they lead towards, or punish you more if you are in violation of the state ethics. There are no natural free-thinking culture workers who are challenging your direction- all the ones that exist are supporting you.

There's a word for state-sanctioned culture workers who toe the government line, and that's propagandists. And they are just part of the government bureaucracy.

I don't know that this is true, though. Because as you said they don't influence ethics attraction, and each culture worker has their own ethics, "toeing the government line" isn't really what they're doing. Just because they don't challenge your authority doesn't make them yes-men. I've had many situations playing a free egalitarian xenophile empire where my culture workers end up being xenophobic or authoritarian. Just because the state builds all the jobs doesn't mean they control free thought and culture. Really, the fact that you order the buildings built yourself is just an abstraction for gameplay purposes, since many empire types would definitely not work that way in practice.

 

[Liggi]

It's less that culture workers are removed, or bureaucrats will produce unity, and more that Bureaucrats will not be producing admin cap. Instead of raising admin cap, empires will spend unity to mitigate the effects of admin sprawl.

Nothing was put out about whether Bureaucrats would be the primary producers of unity, or if it would be culture workers. Or if one or the other would be removed. Or if culture workers would be a better bureaucrat, with a touch of science to help the bio/psionic ascenders out there, but balanced by cost.


As for Stellaris in particular, Stellaris is a command-control economy state-centric game. You play the state, not a person in the state. Everything that occurs is a result of a state-level decision (the player), with the closest to cultural pressures you face being your mechanical limitaations that vary by ethic or playstyle. But what the game calls culture workers are state-sanctioned culture worker, because it's the state who's building and managing their employment, and all the culture workers you have in the game inherently support the state's goals no matter what they are or change to be. They don't even affect government ethics attraction one way or another, which would at least either incentivize you to change ethics to what they lead towards, or punish you more if you are in violation of the state ethics. There are no natural free-thinking culture workers who are challenging your direction- all the ones that exist are supporting you.

There's a word for state-sanctioned culture workers who toe the government line, and that's propagandists. And they are just part of the government bureaucracy.

You’re not playing the state, you’re playing the “spirit” of your empire. I think there’s an important distinction there. Otherwise, why can you use Influence to Promote factions that aren’t part of your Governing Ethics?

I think it’s a misunderstanding to think you’re playing the state in a command-control economy. That’s not what is happening. You building Holo-Theatres just represents Holo-Theatres getting built. If you’re playing an Autocracy, maybe that’s because the dictator willed it, but maybe it happened another way. The only relevant thing is that it got built. The details depend on how you choose to interpret things.

 

[Critical Ethics]

Bureaucrats as people who help shape public perception and attitudes makes perfect sense. This shaping of your empire's values being supported by (government run) entertainment networks and "culture workers" also make sense. Bureaucrats who generate "Unity" to create "Traditions" does not make sense, but "Unity" and "Traditions" have been weird names for what they actually are for some time so I'd say the names the real problem.

 

[Empire of Terra Nova]

unity is actually administration mana

and culture workers are what you call social workers, they're fine as they are, providing administration mana and society research points

so the problem is not their function but their naming (as well as working place; temples/priests are the closest to depict them appropriately, while arena/duelists and autochthon monument/leisure districts are... a bit weird... and in case of latter too mixed up with actual culture workers who usually work in the fine arts and in the nightlife)

bureaucrats are not social workers, they are public officials, so if there was no distinction between unity and administrative efficiency (both are admin mana) they would produce unity but no society research points

 

[TrotBot]

unity is actually administration mana

and culture workers are what you call social workers, they're fine as they are, providing administration mana and society research points

so the problem is not their function but their naming (as well as working place; temples/priests are the closest to depict them appropriately, while arena/duelists and autochthon monument/leisure districts are... a bit weird... and in case of latter too mixed up with actual culture workers who usually work in the fine arts and in the nightlife)

bureaucrats are not social workers, they are public officials, so if there was no distinction between unity and administrative efficiency (both are admin mana) they would produce unity but no society research points

Roman gladiator colossiums producing unity kind of makes sense, and utopian abundant societies producing unity from vast leisure districts would be kind of cool. instead of bureaucrats. the consumer goods cost is the same if not more, so let it be a flavour thing that some societies produce unity through other means.

 

[Empire of Terra Nova]

Roman gladiator colossiums producing unity kind of makes sense, and utopian abundant societies producing unity from vast leisure districts would be kind of cool. instead of bureaucrats. the consumer goods cost is the same if not more, so let it be a flavour thing that some societies produce unity through other means.

yeah, the gladiators served as an occasion for the people to gather the ruling class would also use the opportunity to engage in politics and while being entertained, just like nowadays they would meet in all kinds of spa centres, retreats etc and do likewise

i used to pick utopian abundance for the research without actually having unemployment (thx to ecu/ringworlds) so now i choose academic privilege whenever i can; it's not perfect rp wise but provides +10% research from beginning for the same cg upkeep

 

[Critical Ethics]

while arena/duelists and autochthon monument/leisure districts are... a bit weird...

Statues and other public monuments influence public perception as symbols of the power of the state and as examples of who it is being implied we should venerate. Media influences public attitudes based on what values the good guys have vs the bad guys, and more subtly through what parts of society are treated as comedy attitudes or just not depicted at all. Duelists are an extension of this, with space-hulk hogan extolling the virtues of space-america and space-capitalism.

 

[TrotBot]

used to pick utopian abundance for the research without actually having unemployment (thx to ecu/ringworlds) so now i choose academic privilege whenever i can; it's not perfect rp wise but provides +10% research from beginning for the same cg upkeep

Roleplay wise, as you said, those are not interchangeable as one is an unequal class society and the other is classless. From a technical standpoint the difference isn't even big enough to feel guilty picking roleplay over efficiency. Utopian abundance makes up for the 10% research bonus with a more than 10% stability bonus on all your planets from all your classes being happier instead of just your academic rulers. You don't need unemployment research for abundance to be worthwhile. That's just the cherry on top. And the unemployment will happen on your feeder worlds.

 

[GOLANX]

Culture Means different things to Different Societies.
Ask a Klingon about his Culture and he will Tell you the Tale of Kahless and his struggles from adversity and Spiritual Enlightenment, and then he may tell you the bloody tales of his proficiency in combat and his strength as a warrior, before demonstrating his Strength with a Batleth, if your lucky you will be in 1 Piece at the end, and able to share the story.

Ask a Ferengi about his culture and he will offer to sell you information for 2,000 Bars of Gold Pressed Latinum. After doing so he will Offer you a Copy of the Rules of Aquisition for 4,000 Bars of Gold Pressed Latinum. For More information it will coat you 6,000 Bars of gold Pressed Latinum. For 8,000 Bars you can Own the Great Jewels of The Nagus that have a long and storied history that he didn't just make up on the spot, a History you too can Learn for 10,000 Bars of Gold Pressed Latinum. If you scan the Jewels you will find he Replicated them not 5 mins ago.

The United Federation of Planets will drop a Library on you, like a Whole library, which you can be assured is composed of the literary works of Hundreds of Cultures, from thousands of Years Millions of Authors and Billions a Works, including this very post. Your Guide will then take you to a holodeck where he will regail you with a play by a Poet Who died a Thousand Years ago in a Language 21st Century Humans couldn't Understand, after hours of Torture by Shakespeare you will be wondering what borg Culture is like. "Culture is Irrelevant, you will be assimilated, Resistance is futile."

A Turian will describe his service record and that time he beat Commander Sheppard before taking you to a recruiter.

A Quarian will tell you about the Geth, The Flotilla and their Pilgramidge.

A Krogan will complain about how unfairly they were treated when the Turians inflicted the Genophage on them, conveniently leaving out the part where Krogans had become Genocidal in their lust for expansion, prior to the Genophage.

See? Culture Means different things to different societies. Culture workers shouldn't just be making unity and a little society research, they should each provide special Bonuses based on their ethics or traditions. Unity is the Bond your people share for each other and the empire, Culture workers should show what they are bonding over, not just tell me they are bonding.

Bureocrats help apply the rules and Regulations of the empire, providing Services to those who have earned them. In Some societies that may be an important bond, such as Byzintine Bureaucracy. Not many would, to suggest that Bureocrats produce Unity is a very top down view, the Idea that a Society is Built on its Current leader only applies to certain Authoritarian Societies. For most Empires Unity, the Bond People have towards each other and the State is created by the people, it is a Foundation upon which the society is built, the Faith People Have in the Government allows the government to craft policy to suit their needs. An Empire without these bonds, without Unity, is doomed to Failure.