Was the Holy Roman Empire An Attempt to Recreate the W. Roman Empire?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

stevieji

Squadron Leader
28 Badges
Dec 17, 2013
647
10.955
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
As the title asks, was the Holy Roman Empire, starting with Charlemagne in 800 an attempt of his to re-create the (Western) Roman Empire? Or was it completely unrelated, and Charlemagne had no Roman ambitions?
It's obvious that Charlemagne succeeded in uniting a great deal of territory which was formerly part of the Roman Empire - and quite a bit that never was, as well. It's also quite striking that no sooner had he managed to do this than he divided it up amongst his successors - so I suppose the conclusion has to be that there was no serious intent to recreate the empire.
Can we say there is a link between the [Western] Roman Empire and Francia (later the Holy Roman Empire)?
I don't know if you're thinking of the rump Western Empire under Syagrius, but no - Charlemagne's empire was fundamentally Germanic - Frankish, not French - and Francia really wasn't important.
I ask because at times Charlesmagne seems to strike an independent pose, as a Frankish King, and then you see him striking coins of himself as a new Roman Emperor. The contrast is very confusing indeed.
Even modern coins, at least the ones from Monarchies, replicate the Roman portrait of the ruler in profile. This is not an accident - I think someone already mentioned how the Kaisers were German Caesars - and all modern European states are in some ways the successors of the Roman administrative areas. It hardly matters whether they are united under a super-state or not - on a regional level, in some places, the Goths succeeded the Romans and were eventually succeeded by the French monarchy - and finally the Republic. Farmers continue to farm and they pay their taxes to whoever happens to be in charge at the moment.

"The agglomeration which called itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire."

-Voltaire
I can't imagine why 8 people found it necessary to 'disagree' with this. I don't know whether they're disagreeing with Voltaire, or with you for posting it, but I've always been fond of the quote. Lends itself to all kinds of modern applications - like the Democratic Republic of Congo, which has been said to be neither democratic, or a republic. Similarly, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea - you get the idea.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

StephenT

OT iconoclast
89 Badges
Mar 10, 2001
8.721
317
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities in Motion
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
It's obvious that Charlemagne succeeded in uniting a great deal of territory which was formerly part of the Roman Empire - and quite a bit that never was, as well. It's also quite striking that no sooner had he managed to do this than he divided it up amongst his successors - so I suppose the conclusion has to be that there was no serious intent to recreate the empire.
I think it proves quite the opposite.

The concept of the Frankish state seems to have been a single people, the Franks, who could be ruled by one or several kings, but still remained one people. The concept of the Roman state was a single people, the Romans, who could be ruled by one or several emperors, but still remained one empire. Same concept. By 800, the idea that there could only be one ruler of Romans at a time had been false for over 500 years.

Besides, Charlemagne used the motto 'Restoration of the Roman Empire' on his seal. You can't get more explicit than that about his intentions. He adopted the title 'Emperor' to demonstrate that he was the ruler of the entire territory under his control, which included Italy and the city of Rome itself, and not merely the king of the Frankish and Lombard people who lived there.


I can't imagine why 8 people found it necessary to 'disagree' with this. I don't know whether they're disagreeing with Voltaire, or with you for posting it, but I've always been fond of the quote.
Voltaire's quote was a witty description of the Holy Roman Empire as it was in the 1700s, after the Peace of Westphalia. The quote is problematic when people assume that it also automatically applies to the Empire in 800 or 1000 or 1200 or 1500.
 

Druplesnubb

Lt. General
42 Badges
May 14, 2013
1.380
1.105
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Magicka
  • Imperator: Rome
Voltaire's quote referred to the late 18th century Holy Roman Empire, which had so little in common with Charlemagne's and Otto's empires that most don't consider the quote relevant to the discussion.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

IsadorBG

General
63 Badges
Dec 19, 2011
1.925
1.753
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
It's obvious that Charlemagne succeeded in uniting a great deal of territory which was formerly part of the Roman Empire - and quite a bit that never was, as well. It's also quite striking that no sooner had he managed to do this than he divided it up amongst his successors - so I suppose the conclusion has to be that there was no serious intent to recreate the empire.

That was common practise for the Franks.

The realm was understood not as a state independent of the king but as his domain and as such should be divided among his sons like any other part of an inheritance.

I don't know if you're thinking of the rump Western Empire under Syagrius, but no - Charlemagne's empire was fundamentally Germanic - Frankish, not French - and Francia really wasn't important.

Francia refers to either the whole Frankish state or the what the Franks considered to be their homeland also known as Frankland.

The second part shows such a large ignorance on the Franks, I can only advice you to read more on their empire and society. Anyway on what Francia means since it it short to explain:

What you call Sygarius former desmesne was named Neustria ("New Land") by the Franks and an integral part of "Frankland" and so irrelevent that the two most used capital Paris and Soissons were there until Charlemagne moved the court to Aachen after 800.

In Charlemagne, inner Francia more or less included France (Neustria), the Benelux and Germany except Aquitaine, and the ethnic Germans duchies/kingdom (Swabia, Saxonia, Bavaria).

The concept of the Frankish state seems to have been a single people, the Franks, who could be ruled by one or several kings, but still remained one people. The concept of the Roman state was a single people, the Romans, who could be ruled by one or several emperors, but still remained one empire. Same concept.

Ha! Then each gavelkind system is inspired by Rome if I read this correctly. From the Mongols Empire to the Irish clans, it is amazing how many people had the same concept as the Romans.
Just nitpicking but it is true that gavelking is nothing oustanding even tough Rome had it own little spin on it (like the fact that it was not systematic nor hereditary) like every other culture had.

By 800, the idea that there could only be one ruler of Romans at a time had been false for over 500 years.

What ? And there I was sure that they was consistently one ruler of the Romans for almost 500 years by 800 ?? How this could prove anything false ?

Voltaire's quote was a witty description of the Holy Roman Empire as it was in the 1700s, after the Peace of Westphalia. The quote is problematic when people assume that it also automatically applies to the Empire in 800 or 1000 or 1200 or 1500.

But nobody took the HRE seriously (at least on being the Roman Empire) whether in 800 or in 1700. Even many Emperor of the HRE found it ridiculous (like Frederic II) or lacking Henry II.
It is no surprise that they had to add "Holy" and then of the "Germans Nation" when it was so much lacking in the "Roman" department.

Well nobody is a bit much. I am sure some noble inside the Empire and maybe even some good catholic outside of it. But for everybody else it was Germany from the Atlantic to China.
 

Dr.Livingstone

General
62 Badges
Jan 29, 2014
1.852
474
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
The short answer? Yes.

The long answer? The reality is somewhat more complicated. The entire period between Constantine the Great (who I usually mark as the first 'Byzantine' Emperor) to Justinian (the last 'Roman' Emperor) is a murky one for historians, and doubly so for those who wish to define what is and what isn't a part of the Empire. Throughout the Imperial and even into the late Republican Era the Empire was split between the Greek Eastern half and the Latin West, but it was only in the reigns of Diocletian and Constantine that this split was made permanent. After the crisis of the fifth century the Western half disintegrated, with the reign of the illegitimate puppet emperor Romulus Augustulus in 476 traditionally used to mark this final fall. However, what is often overlooked is that even after his reign the Eastern Empire retained De jure authority over much of the West; the Vandals and the Visgoths were both vassal kingdoms under Constantinople's authority. Justinian's march west was not seen as a 'reconquering' as such, merely as Byzantium reasserting authority over their provinces. Even the Franks, a kingdom on the other side of Europe and lacking most aspects of Eastern administration accepted the Emperor's authority in certain diplomatic and political ceremonies.

The Muslim invasion and the Frankish Empire under Charlemagne disrupted these ceremonies. In the case of the latter, this probably was the idea. By having a Western Emperor, one that's Catholic besides, the rulers of Western Europe maintained legitimacy while also helping to break the remaining bonds to the Eastern Empire. Moreover, it gave Charlemagne the legitimacy to invade, conquer, and 'reassert authority' to the wayward provinces. There was also a secondary matter that some historians have speculated on. The Empress of the Eastern Empire was a women named Irene, leading the empire after a time of civil strife both at home and abroad. By that point, the East and South had been conquered by the various Muslim Kingdoms, the Danube frontier was threatened by the Bulgars, and internally the empire was racked with religious wars between the Iconoclasts and the Orthodox. By crowning himself Emperor, Charlemagne made the claim that a women was not fit for the throne, undermining her legitimacy and claiming that his domain the true successor to the Roman Empire in its entirety. Irene, realizing the precariousness of her situation, attempted to enter into a marriage with Charlemagne, both to shore up her positions and to reunite both halves of the Empire. While this was frustrated by one her courtiers, it does show that even in the mind of Empress, there was a certain amount of legitimacy designated to the new Western Empire. This would of been confirmed had the ceremony occurred, and perhaps we would be saying that the true collapse of the Empire occurred with Napoleon's dismantlement of the HRE.
 

Tabris01

Za Ra
75 Badges
Jan 14, 2011
1.159
308
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
I believe the crowning of an emperor by the pope was an attempt to counter the power of the emperor in Instanbul.
Constantinople. That place is named Constantinople.

At least at that point of time
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Henry IX

Lt. General
37 Badges
Feb 6, 2012
1.459
2.514
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
A point that has not been raised is what did people in the 8th century view the Roman empire as. Many of the posts make the tacit assumption that the Roman Empire the Charlemagne was (or wasn't) trying to create was the empire of the 1-2 centuries AD. The actual collapse of the Western Roman Empire was a gradual event and not even acknowledged at the time - many de facto independent rulers still held some form of de jure relationship with the Roman Empire even long past the point it had ceased to exist in the west.

As such a Frankish ruler may have viewed 'The Roman Empire' as a much looser entity than modern people tend to. In the Early Medieval period central authority was often almost non-existent and ties of vassalage and acknowledgement of supremacy were often little more than an expression of relative power rather than giving a king much in the way of rights and privileges over their subjects. As such, the entity that Charlemagne created could still be a legitimate attempt to re-establish the WRE as it was understood at the time, and also at the same time a normal (if very big) early medieval kingdom.
 

The-Doc

Lt. General
53 Badges
Apr 16, 2009
1.216
399
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Darkest Hour
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
What did the title functionally achieve for Charlemagne? I doubt it meant much to the Saxons or Frisians, and it didn't make him an equal to the Eastern court.

In a way I think it was just a formalization of his role in keeping Rome free of the Lombards.
 

keynes2.0

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
7.861
4.281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
Well it would show his cooperation with the Romans and give credence to his claim to be a just ruler who cared about peace. That would be important for the clerical types who were a major source of revenues and legitimacy back in those days.
 

Captain Frakas

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Apr 10, 2002
7.140
3.813
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
What did the title functionally achieve for Charlemagne? I doubt it meant much to the Saxons or Frisians, and it didn't make him an equal to the Eastern court.

In a way I think it was just a formalization of his role in keeping Rome free of the Lombards.

Charlemagne was a bit interested in all the Roman stuff but rather seen himself as the successor as King David than the successor of the emperor Constantine. The rebirth of the Roman Empire was way more a willingness and a dream of the educated court of Charlemagne (especially inside the Palatine Academy) which advised and interested him in consequence.

Frankish and Saxon subjects of Charlemagne were not much interested into it. And in Charlemagne's mind, all this story did not stayed much in regard of his full rule.

The Franks viewed The Roman Empire as that empire in the East which call us barbarian and claim suzerainty over us.

In fact, that's wasn't true:

Two major events contributed to universalize the understanding of what is a Roman, allowing (educated) Franks to perceive themselves as being Romans, not as inhabitants of Rome but as Christians:

1. Under Hadrian's rule by numerous and long travels of the emperor, we assist to a shift of the perception of the Empire from a Roman then Italian hegemony (Rome was no longer the capital since a long time) to an unified and œcumenical Empire [1]. 2. This prepare the roots for Caracalla' edict, of 212. Since this edict, all free men of the Empire were granted Roman Citizenship, so the old divide between Roman citizens and Empire's simple subjects did disappears and Roman was now longer perceived defining all inhabitants of the Empire (a new divide did appears between Honest men [honestiores] and Humble men [humiliores]) [2]. 3. In a way, Roman Empire considered that it was the sole State in the world, and Roman Emperors did not have any Foreign Affairs ministers...[3] 4. With the help of conversion to Christianity, initiated by Constantine since 313, and strengthened by Theodosius and Gratian who instituted the Christian Church as State Church, the Empire became the Christian Empire, something which gave it its universal aspect with the responsibility to preach Gospels to the whole world and to prepare mankind to the rule of God [4].

Hence, at the Time of Charlemagne, Roman and Christian were perceived meaning the same thing. In the West the feeling to have been part of the Empire was still present but very few were aware that the Empire was defined being the political entity of a Greco-Roman cultural community ; it was rather and mainly perceived being the political entity of a Christian religious community: a community uniting the African Augustine of Hippo, the Italian Boethius, the Hispanic Isidore of Seville, the Anglo-Saxon Bede... [4]. Interestingly, in the East, Roman and Christian similarly was perceived being the same concept, but under the word for Greek. There, the emperor was presented being like a thirteen apostle, legislating for the Church in the East [5].​

In addition to those two events, two others contributed to make the Eastern Roman Empire being perceived as being rather the kingdom of Greeks (rather as "The Roman Empire"):

If there was, between 395 and 480, two emperors: one in the western part of the Empire (pars occidentalis) and another from the eastern part of the Empire (pars orientalis). This timespan end with the murder of the last emperor in the western part of the Empire, Flavius Julius Nepos, by his soldiers. After him, Flavius Zeno, previously emperor in the eastern part of the Empire, become the sole emperor. But 1. In 629, Flavius Heraclius take the title of king (basileus) rather than of emperor (augustos) and 2. in 797 Irene Sarantapechaina, a woman, become "king" of the Greeks. Basileus now became synonymous to augustos to Greeks but not necessary to others peoples of the former western part.

The terrible way Irene came to power, the fact that she was a woman, the disastrous violent controversies over icons, the bad opinion toward Greek among peoples of the former western part of the Empire (especially in Italy), the "king" meaning of basileus (As I've said, Byzantium was then called the "kingdom of the Greeks" in the west), the political situation in Rome and the prestige of Charles, sole king of the Franks, allowed this last one to become in situation to be accepted as the new emperor in a western part of the former Empire.​

And not during Charlemagne but later, during mediæval Holy Roman emperors, the link between the Empire and the Roman Empire will be legitimized by the combination of the translatio imperii concept with the prophecy of Daniel:

1. the translatio imperii considerate that there is a transition of the imperial authority from east to west. After the Babylonian (First) Empire, there was a Persian (Second) Empire, then a Macedonian (Third) Empire and finally a Roman (Fourth) Empire. 2. However, according to the prophecy of Daniel, there will be only Four empires before the apocalypse so as long as the Roman Empire exist, the end of times is not yet to arrive... As the world hasn't ended so the Roman Empire hasn't fallen. Therefore, someone still possesses and exercises the Roman Empire's authority.​

---

Returning to Charlemagne: the basileus Irene of Athens was very soon overthrew by her grand treasurer, Nicephoros, who was proclaimed basileus by the army. The West (including the Pope & the Emperor in the West) then ended to see the imperial throne is the East being vacant. As emperor, Charlemagne initially and at the end never tried to show himself as a superior to the basileus, avoided to insist too much on the Roman aspect of his own titles and called the Byzantine emperor "my brother".
To the eyes of Charlemagne and of his entourage, there was two parallels empires : a western Empire and an eastern Empire (while in the ancient world there was one Empire and two Emperors).
In return, the Greek were reluctant to recognize Romanship of the emperor in the West: Michael Rhangabe recognized that there was an empire in the West but did not recognized it being the rebirth of the Roman empire in the West.

---
[1] VEYN (P.), L'Empire gréco-romain, Paris, 2005, I., 13, citing, about the exceptional travels of Hadrian's: HALFMANN (H.), Itinera principum : Geschichte und Typologie der Kaiserreisen im rômischen Reich, Stuttgart, 1986
[2] VEYN (P.), opus citatium, I., 12. and FAVIER (J.), Charlemagne, Paris, 2013, XVIII, Le Royaume et l'Empire.
[3] VEYN (P.), op. cit., I. 13, citing MOMMSEN (Th.), Staatsrecht, III., 1, p. 826 and MOMMSEN (Th.), Histoire romaine, II., p. 751, 769 and 781.
[4] FAVIER (J.), op. cit.
[5] FAVIER (J.), op. cit, Paris and "Byzantine Greeks", Terminology, in Wikipedia, citing EARL (D. C.). The Age of Augustus. New York, 1968: Exeter Books (Paul Elek Productions Incorporated), p. 148. and quoting HARRISON (Th.), Greeks and Barbarians. New York: Routledge, 2002, p. 268: "Roman, Greek (if not used in its sense of 'pagan') and Christian became synonymous terms, counterposed to 'foreigner', 'barbarian', 'infidel'. The citizens of the Empire, now predominantly of Greek ethnicity and language, were often called simply ό χριστώνυμος λαός ['the people who bear Christ's name'].".
[4] FAVIER (J.), op. cit.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions: