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The Beast from the East
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You forget that postponing the war until 1945 was not an option for Germany. The Nazi economic recovery was largely funded with borrowed money that was poored in rearmement. Germany would have been bankrupt by 1945 had war not come. War was the only way in which Germany could avoid this outcome for the "glorious" Reich. It was not sane economic policy that Hitler enacted, it was a sprint to the start of the war. No war meant Germany collapsing, with the people still demanding bread and games.
 
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I have to disagree with that Suvorov, look at the hell Stalin put his people through to force military build up and industrialization. And that lasted for at least 3 five year plans, I'm pretty sure Hitler could have juggled finances and stomped down on anyone who thought they were going to rebel because living conditions were going down.

Just because something destroys a country's economy does not mean the country has to stop doing it.
 

Arkestra

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The German economy was on the verge of implosion by the start of war, military conquest was needed to bring in resources; just look at the immediate pre-war balance of payments crises; the German economy simply could not pay for its imports, of which it was in critical need. War was the only option; a war starting in 1945 is not a possibility.
 

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Lt. General
Jun 5, 2001
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Originally posted by Arkestra
The German economy was on the verge of implosion by the start of war, military conquest was needed to bring in resources; just look at the immediate pre-war balance of payments crises; the German economy simply could not pay for its imports, of which it was in critical need. War was the only option; a war starting in 1945 is not a possibility.

True, but there is little difference in economic capability if you chose to invade or not invade Russia... so there is no point to start that war.
 
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I'm not sure why you think Germany's failing economy or its inability to pay for imports would have necessarily destroyed it's ability to last until 1945. The Germans did at least survive the war itself from 39-45, it's not hard to believe that in peacetime, where we would have had a more stable economy from that period Germany would have survived in a much better fashion and successful brought itself up to an even stronger position than Germany was in prior to the Polish invasion in 1939.

Remember, with a war starting in 1945, it's only going to take Hitler at most six months to seize resources in the Middle East or Romania (depending on what the Soviets would be up to here.)

I'm not sure where the statement that Hitler only had six months left to live came from. No one has ever been able to produce true proof of Hitler's remains and no autopsy has ever been published so I'm not sure how we can be for sure on this.
 

Arkestra

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True, but there is little difference in economic capability if you chose to invade or not invade Russia... so there is no point to start that war.

Caucasus oil? Vast tracts of land available for colonisation once victory is achieved?

I'm not sure why you think Germany's failing economy or its inability to pay for imports would have necessarily destroyed it's ability to last until 1945.

Please enlighten me as to how German industry is to function if it can't pay for imports of vital raw materials.

The Germans did at least survive the war itself from 39-45, it's not hard to believe that in peacetime, where we would have had a more stable economy from that period Germany would have survived in a much better fashion and successful brought itself up to an even stronger position than Germany was in prior to the Polish invasion in 1939.

Yes, they survived the war itself because they were able to forcefully seize resources and 'encourage' their puppet nations to buy German goods.

Remember, with a war starting in 1945, it's only going to take Hitler at most six months to seize resources in the Middle East or Romania (depending on what the Soviets would be up to here.)

How are the Germans going to be in Persia and Iraq in six weeks? Are the British just going to sit back and not rearm? Are the Russians going to sit and twiddle their thumbs whilst their mortal foe builds up? This is of course assuming the German economy hasn't collapsed and Hitler hasn't been thrown out by the angry middle and working classes.
 
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As I have said before, Stalin would never go to war with Hitler unless Hitler started it. If you don't believe that you do not understand what type of man Stalin really was.

I said Germany would be in the Middle East in six months, not six weeks (and your quoting me even proves that). I think that is a very realistic estimate, it took Germany all of six weeks to take out all of France, I very seriously doubt that the smallish forces the UK had present in Egypt and it's other Middle Eastern possession could have stood up to say, 20 German divisions (which Hitler CERTAINLY had to spare, he had more than that to spare for a mid east adventure in real life, however because he planned on moving in to the USSR he did not use them.) Also remember the U.K. is not going to be able to send more troops over to its middle eastern possession due to fears of rapid German invasion.

You greatly underestimate the ability of a country to push it's economic power to the very limits in order to arm. Look at North Korea, they have built themselves into a military and nuclear power despite the fact they simply don't have the money to do so, they did so by basically making serfs out of the population. Also look at the limits to which Stalin pushed the USSR during his 3 five year plans of industrialization. Again, you are greatly underestimating that capabilities of a country to push itself to the limit.

The natural resource gains the Germans gained from conquest has also been overestimated by you. They needed oil badly, but if they weren't in active warfare the amount of oil they would need would be much lower, an army that is simply waiting to invade uses much less fuel than an army on the move.
 

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As I have said before, Stalin would never go to war with Hitler unless Hitler started it. If you don't believe that you do not understand what type of man Stalin really was.

What type of man was Stalin really, then?

I said Germany would be in the Middle East in six months, not six weeks (and your quoting me even proves that). I think that is a very realistic estimate, it took Germany all of six weeks to take out all of France, I very seriously doubt that the smallish forces the UK had present in Egypt and it's other Middle Eastern possession could have stood up to say, 20 German divisions (which Hitler CERTAINLY had to spare, he had more than that to spare for a mid east adventure in real life, however because he planned on moving in to the USSR he did not use them.) Also remember the U.K. is not going to be able to send more troops over to its middle eastern possession due to fears of rapid German invasion.

Where is Germany going to stick 20 divisions in preparation for the attack. How is it going to supply them. The UK are just going to sit back and not stick any troops in the middle east in response to this German deployment? Your whole scenario relies on the Germans doing everything right, and the British doing absolutely nothing.

Hitler was set on invading the USSR from the very start; that was the entire essence of his foreign policy. Mein Kampf isn't about creating lebensraum in France; Hitler, the man who provided the dynamism for the German military to modernise and create a war economy in peacetime was the same man who set Germany on a course for war with the Bolsheviks. I'm afraid you can't have one without the other; he believed Germany was the bulwark of civilisation against the communist tide, so I'm afraid those countless divisions sitting in Germany aren't going to the middle east, they're going towards Moscow.

You greatly underestimate the ability of a country to push it's economic power to the very limits in order to arm. Look at North Korea, they have built themselves into a military and nuclear power despite the fact they simply don't have the money to do so, they did so by basically making serfs out of the population. Also look at the limits to which Stalin pushed the USSR during his 3 five year plans of industrialization. Again, you are greatly underestimating that capabilities of a country to push itself to the limit.

Germany isn't North Korea or the USSR. Hitler was greatly reliant on the middle and working classes for support, if they go through another 1929 situation, the conservative elites would have thrown him out onto the scrapheap. Countries with well developed middle classes don't like being turned into serfs.

A large standing army does not a military power make either, poorly trained conscripts I grant you don't need much in the way of imports, and neither does a population that's on the verge of starvation, but if you're going to be waging war on the great powers of the day I'd dare say the requirements are very different. I don't see how a nuclear program requires a vast amount of imports either; expertise and specialised materials can be gained from sympathetic allies or the black market.

The natural resource gains the Germans gained from conquest has also been overestimated by you. They needed oil badly, but if they weren't in active warfare the amount of oil they would need would be much lower, an army that is simply waiting to invade uses much less fuel than an army on the move.

On the eve of war, Germany imported 33% of her raw materials - is this not significant?

Germany was 100m RM in the red in her BoP by 1939, and this was after the four year plan designed to bring about autarky; never mind the fact that the government was 40 billion RM in debt by 1939, and that unemployment figures were massaged greatly.

If these conditions occured today, in a modern economy, the word "basketcase" would be used to describe the economy, no?
 

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Do you have the time, to listen to me rhyme about nothing and everyhing all at once? I am one of those melodramatic fools....
Haha, Basket Case by Green Day.
The whole thing is getting a bit OT, but here is my two cents. IF Hitler had seen the rewards a north africa/middle east camapaign would have brought, he would have launched it, and would have been able to get practically anything he wanted out of the USSR (a two front war with germany would have been Stalin's worst nightmare... and Hitler would have used this all he could, by threatening war if he did not get what he wanted. I don't know Germany's economic status post WW1-pre WW2, but I think they could have done a compromise of war in 1942. I don't know mucn about that, so....
 
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Firstly, I think you underestimate the level of control Hitler had over the German people. Until his army was defeated in the field or the officer corps revolted, they would do whatever he damn well said. They had no means to fight against the SS.

And btw, Britain sitting by and doing nothing isn't exactly hard to believe considering the allies stance in regards to germany historically speaking.

This entire scenario is impossible due to Hitler's lack of ability to focus on anything other than a mad invasion of the USSR. However I was just presenting my idea of what Hitler could have done right, I know he would never have implemented any plan that called for putting the war off.

Germany was in a lot worse financial situation during stages of the Weimar republic, and the international community kept on sending goods into Germany.

What type of man was Stalin?

Stalin was a paranoid, ultra-nationalist communist. His primary goal in everything he ever did was keep communism alive. Stalin was the type of man who carefully calculated everything he did, he was not Hitler, he did not roll the dice. For example, Stalin's occupation of Eastern Europe. Stalin knew his army would not be able to resist the Allies if they wanted to forcefully free eastern europe, in fact Stalin knew (as has been shown from internal soviet memos) that he was in dire straits. He realized the weakness of the USSR at that present time, and he was almost sure that this would be the time the combined capitalist invasion of the workers paradise would occur. This was something he was always paranoid about, he always thought the capitalists were planning an ultimate invasion. However, he was willing to talk tough with the Allies and refuse to budge on Eastern Europe, that is, he refused to budge up to the point of war, at that point he would withdraw. Stalin even remarked later in life how surprised he was the allies had never forcefully made their complaints against him.

Stalin would not have invaded Germany because he feared it would result in a capitalist invasion by the entire west, which he knew he could not withstand.

Hitler could also excuse the presence of his military in N. Africa as simple protection for his Italian allies, after all, did not other nations maintain a military presence in areas that they had an interest in? It's certainly hard to believe the same Britain that allowed him to completely absorb two countries would start a war over a simple military buildup.
 

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Lt. General
Jun 5, 2001
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Absolutely agree with the analysis of Stalin, with one addition: he wanted to see his capitalist enemies fight against one-annother and weaken themselves. Stalin, like most dictatores, was a coward. Dictators usually halt agression when they are challenged. For example, the US simply asked the USSR to halt/withdrawl to the 38th parallel in Korea, not believing that they would take any head of US wishes, as the US had no forces there. Yet Stalin did so, and allowed the US to occupy the southern half, because he was paranoid and wanted to give the US/UN no reason for aggression towards him, (at least until he thought he was strong enough).

Originally posted by OttoVonBismark

It's certainly hard to believe the same Britain that allowed him to completely absorb two countries would start a war over a simple military buildup.

That was enough pretext for the UK to declair war on France after the peace of 1803.
 
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This wasn't 1803. In the 18th century England went to war over a sailor's ear getting cut off, can't really apply stuff from that long ago to a period when the UK was very much "looking to keep the peace."

I'm not sure if you should call Stalin a coward, I'd call him smart in not wanting to get any sort of conflict started with the capitalists. He knew his limits.
 

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The Beast from the East
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Yes, not wanting a war you think you're gonna loose makes you a coward.... :rolleyes:

Would you call it brave, standing up against the entire Western world on your own? I would call it suicide.

Stalin was a lot of things, but certainly not a coward, not in his personal life (in his revolutionary days he did the dirty work, when the Germans were very close to Moscow, he refused to leave the city) nor in his life as a statesman. He was pragmatic and calculated his chances at every turn.

Von Bismark, you called Stalin ultra-nationalist. With this I don't agree. You're probably referring to socialism-in-one-country and the glorification of Russian history during the war years. This was all just politics. Soc. in one country meant taking out Trotsky, his nationalistic stance in the war was just meant to strengthen his people in the fight against Nazism.

Stalin was a very complex man and not Communism or Nationalism was his main ideology, power was. And to keep and enlarge his power, he would even have become a imperialistic capitalist scumbag, had it helped him. (Just look at the revival of the Othodox church during WWII to mobilize the Soviet Union's full potential.)
 
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My studies into Stalin's own personal life are not exhaustive. I've looked at Stalin and some of his actions and have in some ways seen that Stalin saw himself as a successor of the Russian Tsars. I don't believe that Stalin excercised power for power's sake, I think he truly believed in Communism, and that by keeping the Soviet Union alive was the best way to keep communism alive. I've read a few of his essays (of which I don't think there are many). He's always seemed like a fairly ideological communist... but he'd always put national interests above Communism's interests, because he felt the USSR's survival was integral to Communism conquering the world.
 

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Originally posted by Suvorov
Yes, not wanting a war you think you're gonna loose makes you a coward.... :rolleyes:

Would you call it brave, standing up against the entire Western world on your own? I would call it suicide.


It would not have caused the slightest incident... he would have gone virtually unpunished, yet he did not take South Korea.
 

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The Beast from the East
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Originally posted by CoolElephant
It would not have caused the slightest incident... he would have gone virtually unpunished

But did Stalin know that? His country was in ruins, the US had the bomb and consolidation of the Soviet position in Europe was priority no. 1. I would have let S. Korea slip too, probably...

Or maybe Stalin just wasn't such a bad guy and he felt sorry for those poor Koreans! :D ;)
 
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Stalin would have been willing to give up all of his Eastern European conquests save for some small land in poland if the west had really pushed him. I don't think some of you realize a country can't lose 30million plus people, a large portion of its officer corps, and suddenly be back to normal 5 years later.

Again, the Allies didn't push for Eastern Europe because they thought Stalin was willing to fight them. Just like Stalin did not push for the conquest of S. Korea vigorously because he was sure that would result in the allies moving across Eastern Europe and into Russia, something he really preferred to avoid.
 

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Originally posted by OttoVonBismark
Stalin would have been willing to give up all of his Eastern European conquests save for some small land in poland if the west had really pushed him. I don't think some of you realize a country can't lose 30million plus people, a large portion of its officer corps, and suddenly be back to normal 5 years later.

Again, the Allies didn't push for Eastern Europe because they thought Stalin was willing to fight them. Just like Stalin did not push for the conquest of S. Korea vigorously because he was sure that would result in the allies moving across Eastern Europe and into Russia, something he really preferred to avoid.

I believe you totally agree with what I said, or am I reading your post not as it's supposed to be read?

I also said the Soviets were weak and Stalin's aim was not to aggrevate the Allies (who also didn't really wanted to fight another bloody war BTW).