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Pugmak

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I know.

But interestingly enough, a Google search returned the Smeaton I linked higher in the search order than your Smeaton. Which I find very odd, since your Smeaton is far better known and in the news.

I felt the irony was amusing.

Irony is generally ironic like that.
 

Vukodav

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They would have to come up with a delivery system as well and correct me if I'm wrong (air forces aren't my strong suit) but didn't they not have a bomber that could deliver a nuke properly even if they managed to build one?

They did have a few strategic bombers available. Not America bomber, but for European use, sure. As Swinds said, He177 could carry it. It was designed to carry 6000kg of bombs and a Little Boy bomb was around 4.5t so it is only a question of making the bomb bay fix one large bomb instead of several smaller ones.

Germans did have some interesting bomb designs though. They didn't go the bullet type nor the implosion type. They experimented with hollow charges, U235 isotope and some exotic tech designs that are used in modern (late Cold War) designs. If they did manage to create one, you could place one in a V2 and fire it as a tactical nuke, as a V2 could carry about a ton in its warhead. But as said, it was either a missile program or a nuke program :)

But even if they did create a bomb and delivered it, it would hardly make a difference. It made no difference in Japan, it would hardly make a difference if they drop it in London or Moscow. And as they would not have one available before 1943-44 if everything worked as a clockwork for them in building one, by that time they already lost the war and Luftwaffe had no way in deploying a bomb or protecting the bombers carrying it. So in a grand picture, the bomb would change nothing for Germany, even if America bomber was created and a bomb was dropped on New York. Yes, many people would die, but my guess that Germany would not be treated so kindly under the occupation afterwards.

Luckily, Hitler and the High Command never put their back behind the program, did not give the money they had, and scientists made mistakes without enough time to correct them so Germany never got the bomb. In the end, even if the missile program killed many people, it did bring the space exploration while the nukes brought nothing but destruction and fear so in some weird sense, you can say Hitler made a right call.

Oh, and Secret Master, are nukes considered chemical weapons under the forum rules? If so, sorry, feel free to erase my comment about them.
 
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Denkt

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If d-day was possible so sea lion.
At d-day, the allies did enjoy complete naval and air superiority. They also had alot of experience with similar invasions and the ability to prepare for a very long time. Their target was also concentrated on fighting the powerful nation to the east.

They also had technology that was far ahead of Germany which helped alot.
 

21oliver

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If d-day was possible so sea lion.

Horrible comparison. The Allies had total Air and Sea superiority. They had overwhelming resources and forces at their disposal, had the proper forces to conduct the operation AND didnt have the Soviets tearing through their forces.

In a word. No. Sea Lion was not possible.
 

hkrommel

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Horrible comparison. The Allies had total Air and Sea superiority. They had overwhelming resources and forces at their disposal, had the proper forces to conduct the operation AND didnt have the Soviets tearing through their forces.

In a word. No. Sea Lion was not possible.

Not to mention they had actual landing crafts that wouldn't sink in choppy waves or if too many people stood on one side.

nukes brought nothing but destruction and fear so in some weird sense, you can say Hitler made a right call.

We have yet to see the full implications of nuclear technology but since nuclear power is really cool as well as nuclear propulsion I wouldn't call nukes a universal evil. In fact I doubt that without nukes the Cold War would have stayed cold, so there's that too. They're the ultimate deterrent (for now).
 
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Vukodav

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We have yet to see the full implications of nuclear technology but since nuclear power is really cool as well as nuclear propulsion I wouldn't call nukes a universal evil. In fact I doubt that without nukes the Cold War would have stayed cold, so there's that too. They're the ultimate deterrent (for now).

Nuclear power production and nuclear bomb project are not the same thing. You can do one without the other. Yugoslavia, for instance, had Project A and Project B. A was for a reactor and general nuclear engineering, while B was for the bomb.

I'll agree to a deterrent and a Cold War, but then again, the total war after the WWII would mean destruction of a country anyway, bombs or not. So I do not think that the bombs made a mutual destruction a thing... they just made it quicker. Even today, if there were no nukes, a war would mean millions of dead and thousands of cities razed to the ground for any two great powers that go to war. I doubt that anyone is willing to risk it, bombs or no.

So instead of killing and destruction over a few years, the bombs made the same scenario achievable under a few days. If the result is the same it is a bit hard to give the credit of a deterrent solely to the nuke.

And today we (the world) have conventional bombs that are stronger than tactical nuclear weapons, although some strategic ones in the use are still way more powerful.
 

hkrommel

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I'll agree to a deterrent and a Cold War, but then again, the total war after the WWII would mean destruction of a country anyway, bombs or not. So I do not think that the bombs made a mutual destruction a thing... they just made it quicker. Even today, if there were no nukes, a war would mean millions of dead and thousands of cities razed to the ground for any two great powers that go to war. I doubt that anyone is willing to risk it, bombs or no.

I would get into this more but forum rules :p. I'll just say that there is a qualitative difference between nuclear weapons and conventional weapons that shouldn't be discounted, and makes them much more effective as a deterrent.

According to Sellars and Yeatman, that would be Thanet.

I believe a gentleman named William the Conqueror begs to differ (even though he technically landed at Pevensey) :p
 

Czert

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chance of sucess of sealion was great .....as suriving of snowflake in hell.
Yeah, if germans pressed they should land some divisions on britainj and take some land....but thats all. they will have no hope of bringing enough suplies to lannded forces, and as history of wwii prowen no modern army, even infantry only, can live and fight off land resources or with captured weapons/supplies.
in short any landed german in britain will be future corpse or POW.
 

potski

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Germany could use its submarines to supply a few extra divisions (a German infantry division at the time needed from 200 to 300 tons of supplies per day of heavy fighting and a single Deutschland class sub had a capacity of 700 tons of cargo (new ones could carry more) - the RN could not respond as they only went in if they knew that a surface fleet is coming. They never patrol the strait 24/7 so a submarine could sneak no problem - they did the whole war, all the time).

Absolutely no need for naval domination if the Luftwaffe could supply a 100.000 strong army (that included tank divisions) and the single submarine could support a whole division for a day (and Germany had from 20 to 40 subs at sea at all times during that time).
This is an extraordinary claim, that doesn't seem to have been fully addressed. Though @Big Nev does point out one major difficulty of using subs:
The submarines couldn't operate in the English Channel because the whole thing had been mined (tether-mines) to prevent submarines entering. The first three U-boats to try it never reported back.
The Deutschland class subs existed in WW1. They were large "merchant subs" designed to carry cargo, and could indeed carry around 700 tonnes. I can't see any evidence that Germany built anything similar in WW2.

The 20-40 subs at sea the whole time in 1940 that you refer to must be type VII? I'm no expert on the Kriegsmarine, but I can't see any reference to other types of subs that were operational, but correct me if I'm wrong.

A type VIIA had a surface displacement of 626 tonnes, and up to 745 tonnes submerged. I guess you know how that works, that the sub floods some tanks that are full of air. The water is heavier, and causes the sub to sink. The more water in the tanks the deeper the sub goes, but not to sink uncontrolled. The deeper the sub is, the greater the water pressure on the vessel. So this balances out and causes the sub to float at a specific depth. For a type VIIA to a maximum depth of 220m, ie. with the tanks fully flooded and at maximum displacement.

What do you think happens if you load 700 tonnes in one of these subs?

First, this means the sub doesn't have enough buoyancy to ever float on the surface. You could support it in some way while loading it, but it would immediately sink when released.

Second, it couldn't come back up. Normally the subs force air back into the tanks to remove the water, reduce the displacement, and the water pressure pushes it back up. But with the tanks FULL of air the sub needs to weigh around 625 tonnes to surface. It would weigh 1325 tonnes.

Third, rather than just going deeper, the water pressure becomes too much for the hull. At around 230-250m the sub implodes, catastrophic hull damage occurs and the living quarters start to fill with water. The sub becomes even heavier and sinks even further. Even in the deep ocean it will go to the bottom - it's soon just a lump of metal with no buoyancy at all.

The later type VIIs were bigger, the VIIF had a surface displacement of 1084 tonnes, and a maximum submerged displacement of 1181 tonnes. It's obvious that none of these were designed to carry more than a couple of tons of cargo. For instance by reducing their fuel and supplies (and therefore their range), they could replace that with something else. The biggest weight reduction could probably come from not carrying any torpedoes and mines. A type VIIC (first built in 1940) carried 14 torpedoes and 26 mines. My rough guess is they would weigh less than a tonne each. So maybe 30-40 tonnes.

But then comes the other problem - where do you store the cargo safely? The Deutschland class were built with cargo compartments, type VII's weren't. Nor were they designed to get loose cargo in and out of the sub very easily, I assume they can be loaded/unloaded only in proper dock facilities. Over a beach?

Yes, Germany could have planned to build some larger subs designed specifically to carry cargo. Again a strategic re-allocation of resources away from tanks etc. when there was no long-term strategy to invade UK specifically, and generally no intention to develop either an amphibious assault capability, nor an ability to supply an army overseas. For example, they relied totally on the Italians to supply their forces in North Africa. And if you were going to use a surprise amphibious assault, then there were surely far more favourable conditions to do so in July 1941 in the Baltic as part of Barbarossa. They had another year to prepare, and no where near the threat of the Royal Navy and RAF.

BTW - on the idea of a surprise amphibious assault of the UK, one word: ULTRA.

I can't remember if the open wargames that occurred in the 1970s by Sandringham occurred before it was publicly acknowledged exactly how much the UK government knew about German plans from interception of Enigma encrypted messages. Anything you read based on information available to historians shortly after the war needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. The work of Bletchley Park was an official secret for many years. My recollection is that it was only revealed 30 or 40 years after the end of the war. So most people put too much emphasis on Malta, as it appeared that the planes and subs based there did such a great job of spotting Italian convoys carrying Rommel's supplies. When in fact Bletchley Park were reading nearly every message issued by Rommel's quartermaster. His messages were particularly easy to decrypt, because he always used the same phrase at the end of his messages.

But my recollection of the wargames were they were land-based, working out what would have happened if an amphibious landing had already taken place. I'm sure they didn't examine whether it was actually feasible for the Wehrmacht to get across the Channel. Nor what would have happened if they had intercepted messages showing when and where landings would take place. It shouldn't be used as proof that the river barges, or any other alternative that Germany could have put together between June and October 1940, could have got several Divisions across and establish a beachhead.

I would say on your suggestion that tank factories could easily be converted to produce small landing craft for infantry, you might be right. But what about larger ships capable of carrying vehicles, and especially LSTs that can carry 10-20 tanks, trucks, artillery? I've checked the production lists of the shipyards on the River Tyne (where I live). They nearly all produced some LCTs for long periods. For instance, the Vickers-Armstrong yard which built HMS George V stopped making cruisers and destroyers 1940-41, then again 1943-44. That yard made 12 LCTs and 4 LSTs. Swan Hunter made 4 LCTs and 2 LSTs, while Hawthorn Leslie made 4 MLCs, 10 LCTs and 3 LSTs. Between them that's 9 LSTs like this:
1016013401.jpg

You can't make them in a tank factory inland. Which is why the introduction of dockyards in HOI4 is so significant. Germany probably doesn't have the dockyard capacity to make these on the scale to make any amphibious assault of even a few Divisions, without stopping all sub production for 18-24 months. This is the reality - try to win the Battle of the Atlantic or try to land in the UK. Not both.

Either, in my opinion, is doomed to failure. The Allies made 1000 (one thousand) LST type ships, and several thousand cargo ships. And again I could reel off lists of the cruisers and destroyers built on the River Tyne alone, nevermind the Tees, Glasgow, Belfast, Barrow...

Germany could never hope to defeat the UK at sea. If they seriously tried to do so from 1936 they probably wouldn't win against France.

And, no, they couldn't simply Ninja 100,000 men over the Channel in secret one night. Not when the leaders liked to speak openly about their plans in their radio communications, believing that it was impossible for anyone to crack Enigma. Alternative history is interesting, but the fact is the Poles first cracked Enigma in the 1930s.
 
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Director

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But even if they did create a bomb and delivered it, it would hardly make a difference. It made no difference in Japan, it would hardly make a difference if they drop it in London or Moscow.

Wow. Just... wow.

I do believe if someone nuked a city in WW2 it would make a difference - that it did make a huge difference. I cannot find words to adequately say how very wrong I think you are, and how much I disagree with your statement. But here's a try.

No Stalin, no Moscow rail hub, no Party administration or bureaucracy, possibly the loss of Zhukov, no Moscow factories or population - and this makes no difference?
Wipe out what is by far the biggest city in Great Britain, kill the royal family and Churchill, eliminate the ministers, the government and roughly half of the nation's docks, flatten the War Office and Admiralty, destroy the center-point of the national railroad net - and this makes no difference? You said it - but do you really, actually, believe it?

The air campaign (it's impossible to separate the fire-bombing from the nuclear strikes) over Japan, coupled with the losses of islands like Okinawa and the destruction of the Navy, led the Emperor to take the unprecedented step of actually making and voicing a decision. But until the air campaign entered into its firebombing stage, the other factors had not been enough to make the Japanese leadership consider accepting defeat. Had the Emperor not decided to give up, or had the officers' revolt afterwards been successful, then the United States and Britain were going to assault the island of Kyushu. Casualties for that were estimated at 500,000 Allied dead and wounded; from D-Day to V-E Day the casualties were about 750,000. That does not count the Japanese casualties, which could have been a million-plus military and the same civilian. For the follow-on invasion of the Tokyo plain, casualties could easily have tripled.

So 2 million Allied casualties and four to ten million Japanese casualties... makes no difference?

You're damned right the bomb made a difference - one of those dead on Kyushu might well have been my father, who was slated to go in with Walter Krueger's Sixth Army. You have a right to your opinion, but I think you are guilty here of posting something you did not think through. We could use some reasoned arguments here, and your previous posts have not been without merit. But that quote is, I think, somewhere out past 'ill-considered' and I can't let it go by without saying something.

There's no conspiracy here to discredit SeaLion, and there's no automatic rejection of arguments in its favor (or acceptance, either). But the Paradox forums have always attracted an older, more academic, more informed sort of historical buff, and the evolutionary pressure on ideas here is intense. That's not an attempt to dismiss or reject an idea, it's an effort to prove it - to test it to its limits. And when an idea goes up in smoke (as mine frequently do - I have a lot of opinions and sometimes don't fully buttress them with, you know, actual facts) then it is not a personal attack - it is a chance for all of us to get a bit more useful handle on a topic we're all interested in.

Sorry if this is a little strong, but you really touched a nerve.
 
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Axe99

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+1 to an atomic bomb making a difference to either the UK or Moscow (or Germany, Italy or the US for that matter).

For some perspective on the difference in amphibious landing capabilities between the Allies and Germany, between 1936 and 1946, the US, UK and Canada built over 47,000 landing ships and craft, at over 4 million tons of shipping (and this doesn't include hundreds of thousands of tons of US attack transports, which I haven't got into my data yet), to support its amphibious invasions. Germany, on the other hand, had pretty much nothing, and very limited experience with naval landings (something the UK had been doing since before WW1, and the US had started looking at seriously in the 1930s).
 
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Vukodav

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This is an extraordinary claim, that doesn't seem to have been fully addressed. Though @Big Nev does point out one major difficulty of using subs:

The Deutschland class subs existed in WW1. They were large "merchant subs" designed to carry cargo, and could indeed carry around 700 tonnes. I can't see any evidence that Germany built anything similar in WW2.

The 20-40 subs at sea the whole time in 1940 that you refer to must be type VII? I'm no expert on the Kriegsmarine, but I can't see any reference to other types of subs that were operational, but correct me if I'm wrong.

A type VIIA had a surface displacement of 626 tonnes, and up to 745 tonnes submerged. I guess you know how that works, that the sub floods some tanks that are full of air. The water is heavier, and causes the sub to sink. The more water in the tanks the deeper the sub goes, but not to sink uncontrolled. The deeper the sub is, the greater the water pressure on the vessel. So this balances out and causes the sub to float at a specific depth. For a type VIIA to a maximum depth of 220m, ie. with the tanks fully flooded and at maximum displacement.

What do you think happens if you load 700 tonnes in one of these subs?

First, this means the sub doesn't have enough buoyancy to ever float on the surface. You could support it in some way while loading it, but it would immediately sink when released.

Second, it couldn't come back up. Normally the subs force air back into the tanks to remove the water, reduce the displacement, and the water pressure pushes it back up. But with the tanks FULL of air the sub needs to weigh around 625 tonnes to surface. It would weigh 1325 tonnes.

Third, rather than just going deeper, the water pressure becomes too much for the hull. At around 230-250m the sub implodes, catastrophic hull damage occurs and the living quarters start to fill with water. The sub becomes even heavier and sinks even further. Even in the deep ocean it will go to the bottom - it's soon just a lump of metal with no buoyancy at all.

The later type VIIs were bigger, the VIIF had a surface displacement of 1084 tonnes, and a maximum submerged displacement of 1181 tonnes. It's obvious that none of these were designed to carry more than a couple of tons of cargo. For instance by reducing their fuel and supplies (and therefore their range), they could replace that with something else. The biggest weight reduction could probably come from not carrying any torpedoes and mines. A type VIIC (first built in 1940) carried 14 torpedoes and 26 mines. My rough guess is they would weigh less than a tonne each. So maybe 30-40 tonnes.

But then comes the other problem - where do you store the cargo safely? The Deutschland class were built with cargo compartments, type VII's weren't. Nor were they designed to get loose cargo in and out of the sub very easily, I assume they can be loaded/unloaded only in proper dock facilities. Over a beach?

Yes, Germany could have planned to build some larger subs designed specifically to carry cargo. Again a strategic re-allocation of resources away from tanks etc. when there was no long-term strategy to invade UK specifically, and generally no intention to develop either an amphibious assault capability, nor an ability to supply an army overseas. For example, they relied totally on the Italians to supply their forces in North Africa. And if you were going to use a surprise amphibious assault, then there were surely far more favourable conditions to do so in July 1941 in the Baltic as part of Barbarossa. They had another year to prepare, and no where near the threat of the Royal Navy and RAF.

BTW - on the idea of a surprise amphibious assault of the UK, one word: ULTRA.

I can't remember if the open wargames that occurred in the 1970s by Sandringham occurred before it was publicly acknowledged exactly how much the UK government knew about German plans from interception of Enigma encrypted messages. Anything you read based on information available to historians shortly after the war needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. The work of Bletchley Park was an official secret for many years. My recollection is that it was only revealed 30 or 40 years after the end of the war. So most people put too much emphasis on Malta, as it appeared that the planes and subs based there did such a great job of spotting Italian convoys carrying Rommel's supplies. When in fact Bletchley Park were reading nearly every message issued by Rommel's quartermaster. His messages were particularly easy to decrypt, because he always used the same phrase at the end of his messages.

But my recollection of the wargames were they were land-based, working out what would have happened if an amphibious landing had already taken place. I'm sure they didn't examine whether it was actually feasible for the Wehrmacht to get across the Channel. Nor what would have happened if they had intercepted messages showing when and where landings would take place. It shouldn't be used as proof that the river barges, or any other alternative that Germany could have put together between June and October 1940, could have got several Divisions across and establish a beachhead.

I would say on your suggestion that tank factories could easily be converted to produce small landing craft for infantry, you might be right. But what about larger ships capable of carrying vehicles, and especially LSTs that can carry 10-20 tanks, trucks, artillery? I've checked the production lists of the shipyards on the River Tyne (where I live). They nearly all produced some LCTs for long periods. For instance, the Vickers-Armstrong yard which built HMS George V stopped making cruisers and destroyers 1940-41, then again 1943-44. That yard made 12 LCTs and 4 LSTs. Swan Hunter made 4 LCTs and 2 LSTs, while Hawthorn Leslie made 4 MLCs, 10 LCTs and 3 LSTs. Between them that's 9 LSTs like this:
1016013401.jpg

You can't make them in a tank factory inland. Which is why the introduction of dockyards in HOI4 is so significant. Germany probably doesn't have the dockyard capacity to make these on the scale to make any amphibious assault of even a few Divisions, without stopping all sub production for 18-24 months. This is the reality - try to win the Battle of the Atlantic or try to land in the UK. Not both.

Either, in my opinion, is doomed to failure. The Allies made 1000 (one thousand) LST type ships, and several thousand cargo ships. And again I could reel off lists of the cruisers and destroyers built on the River Tyne alone, nevermind the Tees, Glasgow, Belfast, Barrow...

Germany could never hope to defeat the UK at sea. If they seriously tried to do so from 1936 they probably wouldn't win against France.

And, no, they couldn't simply Ninja 100,000 men over the Channel in secret one night. Not when the leaders liked to speak openly about their plans in their radio communications, believing that it was impossible for anyone to crack Enigma. Alternative history is interesting, but the fact is the Poles first cracked Enigma in the 1930s.

About the merchant sub - yup, that is the one. It was constructed within 5 months and could carry 700+ tons. Somehow, I think that Germany in WWII could build a WWI sub within 4 months required. And speaking of type VII's, you are right, they could not carry 700 tons, they could carry half of that. Again, enough for a division. And some of it inside, some outside like the Deutschland sub. And as the channel was not so deep, there was no danger of the sub ever being crushed by the sea.

And yes, it is either Atlantic battle or the invasion - never both! I did not even speak of that. That is why you can refurnish subs for the transport duty to make it easier.

And yes, no beach deployment with subs. I wasn't talking about using the subs for the transportation in the first wave - the first wave should capture the port. Or make sure that Krupp jetty is constructed within a day. Then you can start to unload them.

Mines? Yes, but the Allies had the same problem with their own mines and with the German ones. But that is taken care off moments before the invasion itself. Small craft do the work, even the fast E boats could do it. It only takes a steel cable between the two that would dive and get the mine. And for a depth in the channel it was no biggie.

About beach landing craft themselves, I was not talking about the large assault ships. I was talking about smaller infantry and vehicle ones (3-4 tanks in one). Those you can build in a factory inland. But for some reason, Germany did not even consider constructing one until 1941, even if they had several projects even before the war. For example Pionierlandungsboot 39 was designed even before the war but it took a whole year to build TWO prototypes.

And that was the main problem - Germany DID NOT WANT to invade. Or better, Hitler did not want.

All those barges they gathered up? They did next to no conversion on them. That shows how important it was for them. They just added openings on some and that is it. It is really not hard to convert a barge for sturdier water and give it a propulsion system. For a country that wants to invade you would at least see some craft being built by July 1940 and some serious barge conversion. They had the blueprints, they just did nothing with them until the next year.

And that is my point - had they put their mind and will to it, they could have done it (the navy side - air battle is another thing that is debatable).

They did NOTHING from the fall of France to the September of 1940 when it was originally planed, except gathering barges and cutting holes in them. What, they were waiting for RAF to be destroyed and THEN spend several months to build up the transports? In the time alone the shipyards could build 20 Deutschland class subs, convert existing Type VII's and 40+ Type II's that could carry around 70-100 tons themselves, build hundreds of landing craft instead of tanks (if the production in 1940 was ~1900 tanks, you can bet they could have constructed 1000 landing craft) and convert the barges for a better transport.

The very notion that someone thinks that Germany thought to TOW the barges 100km across the sea is crazy. It was more of a ruse than a preparation for an invasion in order to scare the UK into cease fire.

Nope. The reason Sea Lion failed was because it was never seriously planned in the first place. It was never a Hitler's wish.

As I said, I am ready to discuss the BoB and the things that could happen there. And every other thing. But to say that Germany had no way to build up and transport its troops - nope, simply because it was not even tried, ever, and was not the plan.

People actually took time to talk about the towing of the river barges like it was the idea the Germans really had. Yup, tow it to the shore and... then what? You cannot tow it to the coast itself as the ship would beach with the barge still in deep water. So it would seem that the Germans thought to tow them 10-20 meters from the shore and then soldiers would jump in a 5m water and swim to the shore?!

What makes me mad is that some commentators here think of Germans as a retarded toddlers who just happened to have some big guns. Yeah, the guys who built missiles (and designed, tested and started construction of the frickin' jet in just 4 months), could not in their right minds use the existing designs for the landing crafts, build them at their height of power, ended up thinking... you know what, those barges, let us cut some holes as doors (even if we cannot tow them to the beach itself, maybe push but good luck doing that with a ship), tow them for a day, hope they do not sink from the waves, place them a dozen or so meters from the shore and have our soldiers swim with the full gear to the shore.

And some spent numerous comments about that not being possible. Yeah, no kidding Einstein. Not even a retarded cook in Yugoslav army would think that to be possible, let alone the German High Command.

No one even cared to mention E boats that were a great thing in the channel (proven at work - simple, cheap, could sink a destroyer and was fast enough to avoid most of its big guns fire), no one even thought of using subs as transports (The one in the WWI was built in 5 months, with better tech I bet you a single one could have been built in 3.5 - 4, and as in 1940 Germany constructed 50 subs, in 4 months it could build those mentioned 20 merchant ones instead and convert most of the others for transport), no one even mentioned the existing designs for landing craft and amphibious transports from before the war.

I really do not know what WAS discussed here when the most obvious things were not. Yup, let us forget about the designs for landing craft and the German ability to build them, let us make fun of the barges like they were the actual plan. I mean sure, have some fun by all means. But avoiding and discussion of German possibility and comparing the need of the invasion of the Europe in 1944 with what Germany needed to defeat the UK land army in the fall of 1940... I do not know man. For historical lesson I know where to go. So if the question is could Germany load up the barges and set sail to invade? Nope, and they could not. Did they want to invade in the first place? Nope, if they did they would do something about it, at least try or start preparing. So the whole discussion using the things that did happen is pointless - what is there to discuss? We know the history, thank you very much.
 
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Vukodav

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Wow. Just... wow.

I do believe if someone nuked a city in WW2 it would make a difference - that it did make a huge difference. I cannot find words to adequately say how very wrong I think you are, and how much I disagree with your statement. But here's a try.

No Stalin, no Moscow rail hub, no Party administration or bureaucracy, possibly the loss of Zhukov, no Moscow factories or population - and this makes no difference?
Wipe out what is by far the biggest city in Great Britain, kill the royal family and Churchill, eliminate the ministers, the government and roughly half of the nation's docks, flatten the War Office and Admiralty, destroy the center-point of the national railroad net - and this makes no difference? You said it - but do you really, actually, believe it?

The air campaign (it's impossible to separate the fire-bombing from the nuclear strikes) over Japan, coupled with the losses of islands like Okinawa and the destruction of the Navy, led the Emperor to take the unprecedented step of actually making and voicing a decision. But until the air campaign entered into its firebombing stage, the other factors had not been enough to make the Japanese leadership consider accepting defeat. Had the Emperor not decided to give up, or had the officers' revolt afterwards been successful, then the United States and Britain were going to assault the island of Kyushu. Casualties for that were estimated at 500,000 Allied dead and wounded; from D-Day to V-E Day the casualties were about 750,000. That does not count the Japanese casualties, which could have been a million-plus military and the same civilian. For the follow-on invasion of the Tokyo plain, casualties could easily have tripled.

So 2 million Allied casualties and four to ten million Japanese casualties... makes no difference?

You're damned right the bomb made a difference - one of those dead on Kyushu might well have been my father, who was slated to go in with Walter Krueger's Sixth Army. You have a right to your opinion, but I think you are guilty here of posting something you did not think through. We could use some reasoned arguments here, and your previous posts have not been without merit. But that quote is, I think, somewhere out past 'ill-considered' and I can't let it go by without saying something.

There's no conspiracy here to discredit SeaLion, and there's no automatic rejection of arguments in its favor (or acceptance, either). But the Paradox forums have always attracted an older, more academic, more informed sort of historical buff, and the evolutionary pressure on ideas here is intense. That's not an attempt to dismiss or reject an idea, it's an effort to prove it - to test it to its limits. And when an idea goes up in smoke (as mine frequently do - I have a lot of opinions and sometimes don't fully buttress them with, you know, actual facts) then it is not a personal attack - it is a chance for all of us to get a bit more useful handle on a topic we're all interested in.

Sorry if this is a little strong, but you really touched a nerve.


Yes, I said it and I actually really believe it. The bomb on Moscow or London, in 1944 (could not be before that even if everything goes according to the plan), makes no difference in the war what so ever. Makes a difference on the personal level, any death does, but Germany loses anyway. If you could throw one in 1941 then yes, sure, it makes a difference. But good luck building one from 1939 to 1941. At 1944? Nope, no difference in the outcome of the war.

After the war, yes. Germany would not be treated so kindly as it was and large scars would remain on any nation that was nuked. But the victors would be the same.

And Japan did not surrender because of the nukes. Losing a city to firebombing in a single night or in a single blast is actually the same. Japan was already losing city by city to conventional bombs, could do nothing about it. Dropping a nuke did nothing another two firebombings would not have done. The result is the same - city gone, population killed. If anything, with the nuke most die in an instant - with firebombing people burn alive for a longer time.

The reason Japan actually surrendered is because the Soviets destroyed its main army left and conquered its only industry and resource heartland that was not bombed by the USA. It has nothing to do with the nukes themselves. USA could just firebomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Soviets invade and the result would be the same - Japan surrenders. Nukes made no difference.

Japan surrendered because it was no longer able to fight - not because USA dropped nukes. Take their ability to fight (the sentence before) and they would surrender just the same.

And please do not try to teach academic approach to a nuclear physicist. I kinda know what it is. I have also noticed that a few users look very condescending to anything that is not Allied, be it Axis or Comintern. And that touched my nerve. For clarification on that, look up the large post before this one.

Academic discussion here is based on the thing that did happen - and that is pointless. There is nothing to discuss about. If you want to discuss about Sea Lion for instance, then you should discuss about what Germany could have done in the time period it was given. Talking about the things one can find in a primary school history text book is not actually the academic discussion.
 
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Big Nev

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If you want to discuss about Sea Lion for instance, then you should discuss about what Germany could have done in the time period it was given.

So… what you’re saying is that if Germany could have built more of their 20 ton Pionierlandungsboot 39s. Starting their development in, let’s say… 1936, Sealion might be possible.

Note that the 40 is a little bigger, but the ratio of troop capacity to tonnage is the same so the % of lift capacity is there or threabouts.

By 1940, when the only viable opportunity for Sealion to succeed after the (alternate history) elimination of the BEF at Dunkirk, Germany could have built, maybe 50 in exchange for one U-boat.

Let’s examine that then shall we?

Each boat could have carried 20 tons of cargo or about 50-60 troops.

One of the smaller barges could carry 360 tons. So… you need about 40,000 of these vessels to provide a similar lift capability as the 2,400 barges that were assembled.

That’s the equivalent of 800 type IX U-boats.

Bismarck tipped the scales at about 42,000 tons. The steel & labour used to build her could be equated to 2,100 assault boats.

Scharnhorst 32,000 tons = 1,600 boats.

If Germany wants to build landing craft, sacrificing both Bismarcks and both Scharnhorsts and every U-boat they had built up to this date (about 120) they would be about 25% of the way there at almost 10,000.

This number is not unrealistic as there were about 20,000 Higgins boats built.

So now we’re in to tank factories.

A Pz II weighs about 10 tons so you can get half a boat for each Pz II. So if you sacrifice all Pz II construction, there’s another 1,000 boats.

Pz III. 23 to 25 tons. They’d built about 650 by the end of 1940 so… another 800.

Using the German truck builders and such, as well, they might be able to get half way there.

But these are reasonably fast (compared to a 3kt tow) boats so... yeah.

What I’m saying here is that if Germany put everything (except the airforce. You need the airforce) in to construction of their landing craft from 1936, they would have had enough boats to get a decent sized army, in several trips, across the English Channel.

Unfortunately, they would have no tanks, submarines, or major warships so even Czechoslovakia is looking unlikely, let alone Poland or France.

And even then, they still have to get past the RN. And that's just not going to happen.

So no. Not in any conceivable alternate research & build plan is Germany EVER getting to cross the English Channel.


(I don't want to enter in to any kind of debate about how a ton of battleship requires less work than a ton of tank or small boat or anything like that. There's a lot of little things in a battleship that require a disproportioinate amount of work per ton so everything ballances out pretty closely over all)
 
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Vukodav

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So… what you’re saying is that if Germany could have built more of their 20 ton Pionierlandungsboot 39s. Starting their development in, let’s say… 1936, Sealion might be possible.

Note that the 40 is a little bigger, but the ratio of troop capacity to tonnage is the same so the % of lift capacity is there or threabouts.

By 1940, when the only viable opportunity for Sealion to succeed after the (alternate history) elimination of the BEF at Dunkirk, Germany could have built, maybe 50 in exchange for one U-boat.

Let’s examine that then shall we?

Each boat could have carried 20 tons of cargo or about 50-60 troops.

One of the smaller barges could carry 360 tons. So… you need about 40,000 of these vessels to provide a similar lift capability as the 2,400 barges that were assembled.

That’s the equivalent of 800 type IX U-boats.

Bismarck tipped the scales at about 42,000 tons. The steel & labour used to build her could be equated to 2,100 assault boats.

Scharnhorst 32,000 tons = 1,600 boats.

If Germany wants to build landing craft, sacrificing both Bismarcks and both Scharnhorsts and every U-boat they had built up to this date (about 120) they would be about 25% of the way there at almost 10,000.

This number is not unrealistic as there were about 20,000 Higgins boats built.

So now we’re in to tank factories.

A Pz II weighs about 10 tons so you can get half a boat for each Pz II. So if you sacrifice all Pz II construction, there’s another 1,000 boats.

Pz III. 23 to 25 tons. They’d built about 650 by the end of 1940 so… another 800.

Using the German truck builders, and such, they might be able to get half way there.

What I’m saying here is that if Germany put everything (except the airforce. You need the airforce) in to construction of their landing craft from 1936, they would have had enough boats to get a decent sized army, in several trips, across the English Channel.

Unfortunately, they would have no tanks, submarines, or major warships so even Czechoslovakia is looking unlikely, let alone Poland or France.

And even then, they still have to get past the RN. And that's just not going to happen.

So no. Not in any conceivable alternate research & build plan is Germany EVER getting to cross the English Channel.


(I don't want to enter in to any kind of debate about how a ton of battleship requires less work than a ton of tank or anything like that. There's a lot of little things in a battleship that require a disproportioinate amount of work per ton so everything ballances out pretty closely over all)

Actually, no. For a transport of 80.000 soldiers that were required in the first wave, you need 1300-1400 of those boats. Add to that another 20% to account the usual losses in a situation like that, and you have the number of around 2000 crafts for the three waves, not 40.000. Or in the extreme case of 30% loss, and low end capacity of 50 soldiers, it would take you around 2500. This also points that the whole barge thing was nothing but a ruse.

The whole bloody D-Day invasion had 4100 landing crafts and that was for the invasion of the whole continent held by the dug in Germans... and we are talking about the UK with next to no heavy weapons compared to the German army in 1940.

Yet you managed to get the required number to 40.000? Yeah, good job mate, good job. 10 times bigger invasion than a D-Day. Well, you could just sink those in the channel and drive over - RN could hardly do a bloody thing about it. Game over.

So in the end, all of German land factories combined (no shipyards, no airplane factories) had to do is to make 20 of those per day, if we are going for a 4 months period.

Actually, if they did want to invade they would have constructed at least some in the 4 month period after the fall of France, not two prototypes in mid 1941. But there is no way proving to you people that there never was the intention to go and invade UK. To you, it was, and they planned to do it with the barges - so you could crack jokes and bad math. Well, to each his own.

And no, no one talks about a battleship construction problem compared to a tank. We talk about a modified boat. And that does require less work than a tank of the same tonnage.

As far as any RN goes, the crafts (that went 20km/h) would not be noticed until it is too late for any RN units to respond for the first wave, especially if there was a night landing. Also, the RN would use only destroyers and patrol boats against the invasion force as pointed out by the war game. Big ships would stay away from the battle in the fear of Luftwaffe. Admirals did not want to risk a lucky hit on a huge and expensive capital ships that had little to no use in the channel against the small and fast ships anyway. And those ships could be countered by E boats that did fare pretty well against those kind of ships. They sunk 12 destroyers (and around 120 other ships) with little to no loss - they were simply too fast to catch by gun fire and heavy enough that the smaller guns would not harm them.

Both the UK and Germany used them to a great extent against any big ships in the channel, yet no one even mentions the German ones.

Combine it with mines and dive bombers and Germany just might fight off RN destroyer/boat screen that would try to stop the second and the third wave.
 
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Uniform764

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I've checked the production lists of the shipyards on the River Tyne (where I live).

It causes me physical pain to side with a Geordie, but that was a well reasoned, researched and constructed post. Good points, well made

The whole bloody D-Day invasion had 4100 landing crafts and that was for the invasion of the whole continent held by the dug in Germans...

With large ships anchored safely a few miles from the beach which could refill transports ferrying troops and supplies to the beach before the troop and supply ships just start docking at the artificial harbours with complete impunity, protected by overwhelming naval and sea power. Germany could not have large transports stacked up in the channel waiting to dock or load troops into landing craft
 
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