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scroggin

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Had Germany been able to get into a position where it was able to launch an invasion in 1940. Britain would have known their capabilities and prepared for it. Most of the commonwealth had divisions coming ready for deployment in in 1940. So if Germany had somehow created a situation where they had air superiority, landing craft and a significant navy in 1940 they would have to expect to face 8-12 divisions from australia, new zealand, Canada, south africa and india. Of course that is academic because if Germany had been developing its navy it would have been at the cost of other things such as the tanks needed to win the battle of France.

If Germany had developed the ability to launch an invasion in 1943 after defeating france. That would have left them vulnerable to a stab in the back by the soviets. Hitler had basicly created and unwinable war. No one really trusted him enough to rely on a peace treaty either. Czechoslovakia had shown the value of hitlers word. Both Germany and Russia knew the molitov-rubentrop treaty would be broken. What caught stalin out was how soon hitler broke it.
 
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MMMMMM... lol I almost never disagree so wiki must be wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_order_of_battle

Sorry, I don’t get what you’re saying here. Checking-out the WIKI page link there are more British forces than I’ve listed. Well I did say at least…

Or are you referring to the German OOB which counts several waves?


Let me be clear.

And, I’ll respond to this at the same time.

What's irritating is that many Forummembers point to Royal Navy strength in an invasion scenario. There is little to no evidence that an interception of an invasion fleet IN THE CHANNEL would be more than an suicidal mission. Horinzontal armor was bad in most of the Homefleets bigger vessels. See asian theater and how history went there.


From the link in my first post in this thread.

“The barges were mainly those designed for use on the Rhine, with a shallow freeboard. They sink in anything above Sea State 2. The wash from a fast-moving destroyer would swamp and sink the barge. (Correct: the RN could sink the lot without firing a shot).”

For those who don’t know (like I didn’t so I looked it up) a sea state 2 has waves up to ½ a meter.

So… a sea state 2 is going to be very very uncomfortable for anyone in one of these 2,400 river barges.

A wave higher than ½m swamps everything in its path. A few such waves sink everything in their path.

A destroyer, pelting along at 34+ kts doesn’t have to even get close to one of these barges to swamp it. A light cruiser, even less close.

At night, when the invasion fleet is part-way across, 100 destroyers in lines of 10 abreast steam past at full-tilt only bothering to waste ammunition on the tugs.

A lot of the invasion fleet needs to be out there for up to 30 hours.

It would all be over in two.


Then it turns in to the biggest sea rescue mission of all time.

Hell! The crew of one of the practice barges managed to sink themselves in perfectly clam water just by moving to one side of the barge too quickly!

There will be no second or third wave beacaus almost all of the barges will have been sunk mid-chanel.



Go home Sealion.

You’re drunk.


Edit: In actual fact, in September, there would be every likelyhood that the RN would have nothing at all to do apart from mount a rescue mission on humanitarian grounds. The English Chanel is notorious for freak weather conditions. Just think how big the concrete & steel monstrisities known as Mulberry were.

One of which was tossed aside like a child’s toy in June.
 
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Director

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I was trying to think of a Gettysburg thing, but my knowledge of the American War of Independence is somewhat limited.

You refer, sir, to the War of American Balkanization, or, since men from the Tate family fought on all three sides (including for Kentucky neutrality), The War Between the Tates.

Ahem. I'm fortunate enough to live 30 miles from Gettysburg and less than that from George Washington's choice for the US capital city: Wrightsville/Columbia, PA.

I think that Churchill wouldn't quit even if the Germans landed all 13 divisions without a loss and took the place. Now, if Halifax had been made PM instead - a highly likely alternative to Churchill and a man who had been in favor of appeasement but then recanted - and the BEF was bagged at Dunkirk, then a peace offer from Hitler/Hess might seem more attractive. Remember that Hitler was a favorite of many Britons of the time, especially the 'better sort' who thought him a good alternative to Communism. Not saying it's likely - but I doubt that Halifax would have been able to rally public opinion in the way that Churchill did.

The problem with using the Japanese fleet is that, in 1939, they're still hoping to consolidate China and stay out. Plus I think they didn't join the Axis until 1940, so that takes another bit of fiddling.
The problems with using the Italian fleet are fuel and resolve - the Italian light forces had resolve in spades but not their high command, and there was especially no desire to fight Britain.
The problem with using the French fleet is that, after the fall of France, there basically was no fleet in Axis or Vichy hands.
The problem with using the combined Axis fleets is that in the game, it is simple. But in war, nothing is more difficult than coalition warfare. None of those nations would accept another's admiral as an overall commander; it is doubtful, given the record of the Italian Navy, that they would co-operate with the Germans in any way. They'd need, at the least, a naval Eisenhower, and they weren't going to get one.

By the way, has anyone read the delightful, "The Red Napoleon" by Floyd Gibbons? It's a lost pot-boiler from 1929 assuming Stalin dies, someone more capable takes over and the Soviets steam-roller the West, ending in a climactic battle for Manhattan. Yes, that's right - the Mongols take Manhattan - but they can't keep it. Anyway, one of the central plot-points of the book is that Britain isn't conquered but falls to internal revolution and the new People's Navy is employed against the US. If you can get it as an e-book, do so - Gibbons was a seasoned war correspondent trying his hand at fiction and you'll be surprised how much of the militaria he gets right.


Now, this is just opinion, but I think RN losses at Crete, Malta and elsewhere would be acceptable if the choice was invasion. Britain could (and did) station light forces in Portsmouth and north of the Channel in places like Hull, running them in once the invasion starts. Twenty destroyers and a half-dozen cruisers plus 2-3 old battleships would not be difficult to assemble, and that's more than enough. German naval fighting ability in the Norway campaign was abysmal - even embarrassing.

And the trick is, you know how hard it is to keep men moving forward under fire? They try to go to ground or go sideways or back or anywhere except forward, even if they have more than enough numbers to swamp the defenders. It does no good to say, "If you go on, one in ten of you will get shot but if you freeze, one in six." Men do not want to advance into enemy firepower - hey, that one-in-ten guy might be ME.

Now apply that to a Channel crossing. The Zerstroyers are covering the barges and small ships, maybe a Prinz Eugen is in the Channel. It's night, so the airplanes aren't attacking. Then Rodney and Warspite and six cruisers and a dozen DDs show up. Do the invaders go forward, knowing that half of them might make it?

No. The Army goes home and waits for the Navy and Luftwaffe to guarantee a safe passage - which never happens.
 
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You refer, sir, to the War of American Balkanization, or, since men from the Tate family fought on all three sides (including for Kentucky neutrality), The War Between the Tates.

Ahem. I'm fortunate enough to live 30 miles from Gettysburg and less than that from George Washington's choice for the US capital city: Wrightsville/Columbia, PA.

I think that Churchill wouldn't quit even if the Germans landed all 13 divisions without a loss and took the place. Now, if Halifax had been made PM instead - a highly likely alternative to Churchill and a man who had been in favor of appeasement but then recanted - and the BEF was bagged at Dunkirk, then a peace offer from Hitler/Hess might seem more attractive. Remember that Hitler was a favorite of many Britons of the time, especially the 'better sort' who thought him a good alternative to Communism. Not saying it's likely - but I doubt that Halifax would have been able to rally public opinion in the way that Churchill did.

The problem with using the Japanese fleet is that, in 1939, they're still hoping to consolidate China and stay out. Plus I think they didn't join the Axis until 1940, so that takes another bit of fiddling.
The problems with using the Italian fleet are fuel and resolve - the Italian light forces had resolve in spades but not their high command, and there was especially no desire to fight Britain.
The problem with using the French fleet is that, after the fall of France, there basically was no fleet in Axis or Vichy hands.
The problem with using the combined Axis fleets is that in the game, it is simple. But in war, nothing is more difficult than coalition warfare. None of those nations would accept another's admiral as an overall commander; it is doubtful, given the record of the Italian Navy, that they would co-operate with the Germans in any way. They'd need, at the least, a naval Eisenhower, and they weren't going to get one.

By the way, has anyone read the delightful, "The Red Napoleon" by Floyd Gibbons? It's a lost pot-boiler from 1929 assuming Stalin dies, someone more capable takes over and the Soviets steam-roller the West, ending in a climactic battle for Manhattan. Yes, that's right - the Mongols take Manhattan - but they can't keep it. Anyway, one of the central plot-points of the book is that Britain isn't conquered but falls to internal revolution and the new People's Navy is employed against the US. If you can get it as an e-book, do so - Gibbons was a seasoned war correspondent trying his hand at fiction and you'll be surprised how much of the militaria he gets right.

Thanks Director, will keep an eye open for the book.
 

Caesar15

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I bet the U.S would declare war on Germany if they ever landed troops on British soil. Of course we probably couldn't have done much in such a short period of time but who knows how long the fight over Britian would have lasted.
 
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Secret Master

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Multiple naval losses of capital ships which require the re-distribution of RN heavy units isn't going to seriously deplete the 100+ destroyers that are on-hand to defend the English Chanel. Move the battleships to where they are needed, support them with an appropriate screening force and the RN still has those hundred destroyers (and God only knows how many smaller craft) to fight what? Scharnhorst, Gneisenau a CA & a handful of destroyers & E-boats? Keep the Renown & Repulse at Pembroke (there was a MASSIVE RAF flying boat base there so... positioning a squadron of Hurricanes there to protect them wouldn't be a problem) or Scapa Flow so that they are available to intercept the German battlecruisers if they sortie.

Bismarck still needs to be countered when she's finished, but Hood, PoW and a few other BBs can be retained and, if you wait that long (end Sept 1940), you've probably waited too long. You don't want to be conducting any kind of naval op' in the English Chanel in October or later. Really you don't.


So, even if Germany has managed to build a few thousand proper landing craft, the RN doesn't need BBs to defend the island. With the light units they had (which would always be expected to do the heavy lifting anyway) it would still be over very very quickly and it wouldn't end well for the Wehrmacht.

IMHO of course ;)

The flying boats are not very helpful if the Luftwaffe owns the skies.

The destroyers present a different problem, but I don't think it's insolvable. It depends on how willing Germany and Japan are to bet their capital ships against a horde of destroyers fighting in Channel with torpedoes. The British have no choice but to commit those destroyers to defend against an invasion, so they have to come out and play within the range of the main and secondary armament of Bismark and Yamato. It's going to be a bloodbath with the Luftwaffe spotting for the Axis. (The Axis can also fake invasions if ENIGMA isn't broken to force the RN out to play without actually endangering the invasion force. The goal is to force them into battle to destroy them.)

The question is just how unlucky the Axis is. With 100 destroyers, the RN gets to roll the dice with torpedoes, what, a thousand times? Some of those torpedoes are going to find targets. The question is how many. In my mind, the Axis has to be willing to sacrifice Bismark, Yamato, and Vittoro Veneto in order to have a chance of success. Not that they will necessarily be lost, but they have to sit down and say, "Look, even though Admiral Akbar says it's a trap, we have to go in there and defeat the British. We're going to lose some capital ships, but we will have a real chance to break the RN. And if we do, it will be worth losing some of our capital ships to do so."

It's the opposite of Jutland, really. At Jutland, Jellicoe refuses to bet the RN on the off chance that the Germans could be completely wiped out. There was no need to do so, because the British still controlled the sea. But in this scenario, the Axis bets their naval forces, because the pay off is being able to land forces in Britain. As long as the British are beaten, even if the Axis lose half their capital ships to destroyers and torpedoes, it's worth the price.

Again, we're still in fan boy wank fest territory here. (Italian naval leadership isn't really up for this sort of thing.) But if the Axis are willing to risk their capital ships, I'm not going to give awesome betting odds to the destroyers.
 
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I bet the U.S would declare war on Germany if they ever landed troops on British soil. Of course we probably couldn't have done much in such a short period of time but who knows how long the fight over Britian would have lasted.

Just like how they declared war when all those other democratic countries were invaded unprovoked in 1939-40 . . . . . oh wait, that didn't happen.
 
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If it did "succeed" that success would be nothing more than a very temporary foothold on the British mainland with near 100% loss rates for every single soldier sent out. Kinda hard to see it as a "success" but then again, a temporary gain, followed by a massive retreat (probably none in this case) with massive casualties has been known as a victory for at least one of history's insane dictators - Saddam Hussein.

IMO even if the whole BEF was captured in France the invasion would still fail miserably due the enormous loss rates at sea due to unsuitable equipment and British air and sea superiority, and more importantly even if they captured London they wouldn't be able to be effectively reinforced or supplied.

I disagree. Preventing the escape at Dunkirk would have been a real game changer. The scale of Sea Lion was dictated by expected resistance from the British army--not British civilian. Aside from a division or two, the Home Army was a rag tag force totally incapable of stopping any invasion. It would not have taken twenty six German divisions--not even 13 divisions initially.

The Luftwaffe had 900 Ju 52's at it's disposal. Without the need for heavy equipment for a significant period of time, an air assault on ports and airfields becomes a much easier, and more reasonable. task. The RAF, operating over the Channel would have lost it's home advantage--it could not stop an air assault. A few elite infantry units could have seized several ports, then the game would been to get reinforcements across the Channel. The RN would still have been a major threat, but its ability to catch masses of loaded transports would have practically eliminated.

The loss of the entire BEF may not have guaranteed a German victory, but it would have made it much more likely--very much so.
 
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When the Allies launched a cross-channel invasion in 1944 they had:

Combined naval forces of the British Empire and US.
Elaborate and successful intelligence deception operations
Total air supremacy
Huge merchant marine
Large numbers of specialized amphibous vehicles and vessels
Previous experience with successful amphibious operations in the Pacific and Mediterranean
Capability of employing devices like prefabricated harbors and cross-channel fuel pipeline
Capability of mounting a massive airborne operation in support of the landing
Ability to land multiple combat-ready divisions simultaneously and ability to rapidly sealift additional follow-on forces quickly.

What do the Germans have, in comparison?
 
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The question is just how unlucky the Axis is. With 100 destroyers, the RN gets to roll the dice with torpedoes, what, a thousand times?

It's worth remembering that the RN had a significant submarine force as well, and if we're talking alt-history rather than in-game, there's probably another 200 torpedo tubes on MTBs. I'd bet good money that if the RN is expecting an invasion fleet, there'll be subs lurking in the channel waiting for it.

Not saying those extra forces are insurmountable, but given the limited size of the channel, it'll be a bit easier for the light forces to hit the big 'uns.
 

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Not saying those extra forces are insurmountable, but given the limited size of the channel, it'll be a bit easier for the light forces to hit the big 'uns.

9.jpg


Agrees with your assessment. The Channel favors the smaller ships and torpedo attacks. Imagine what Taffy 3 could have done if the action had happened near Dover.

Although in fairness to the IJN, they thought there were more substantial forces present. If Yamato and her fellow ships pressed the advantage, there would have been 13 sunk ships and a screwed invasion force. (With who knows how many Japanese losses.)
 
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Axe99

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Haha, even if the RN was at the bottom of the sea, if the Germans knew Taffy 3 was about, they'd have called the whole thing off :).
 

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Just to stir things up a bit, here's a scenario that might have played out if the Germans had tried Sea Lion on schedule:

The RAF pulls back on the defensive. Focuses on protecting the fleet in harbor, its own airfields and inland transport infrastructure.
The UK gov evacs civilians to its best ability in the landing areas, as well as logistics to the greatest extent possible, especially fuel.

The Germans are allowed to land their first waves of infantry. Once the mech and heavy arty forces start across, the RAF and RN go on the offensive.

The UK has plenty forces avail to contain the landing, at least significantly, if not completely.

The RAF and RN then transition to interdicting German logistics resupply efforts.

The German forces ashore are forced to surrender. A battalion of John Smeatons are transported down from Glasgow to aid any Germans hesitant in surrendering by kicking them in the nuts.
 
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Tuscan

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The only way for Sealion to have really had any chance is by planning and preparing for it earlier on, and having all the gear ready by the fall of France. Even then it would have been a high risk move.

But Hitler had never planned to conquer France, let alone Britain, the success of the blitzkrieg surprised even the Germans. By the time France fell, the Germans had not even considered an invasion of Britain, let alone geared for it.

That said, the Germans could have conquered Britain without even crossing the channel. If they had won the battle of Britain in the skies and produced more u-boats, they could have bombed and starved Britain into conditional, or perhaps even unconditional surrender. The Japanese were a lot more fanatical than the British, and the US managed to bomb Japan into surrender without stepping on the Japanese mainland.
 

Secret Master

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A battalion of John Smeatons...

What John Smeaton might look like:

08b88a3679044a6ca61017fddef6f4f7.jpg


A battalion of doughy 18th Century civil engineers? I suppose they could build lighthouses and canals out of the panzers the Germans bought. Pretty scary, to be sure. ;)
 

Caesar15

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Just like how they declared war when all those other democratic countries were invaded unprovoked in 1939-40 . . . . . oh wait, that didn't happen.

Oh don't be like that..Britian getting invaded (to America) is a lot different than France or any country before them getting invaded.
 
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TallTroll

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The British Army did wargame Sealion in the 70's, assuming that the BoB was lost, with the RAF withdrawing to it's northern bases, RN north of the Wash etc. Germany does OK (assuming fairly OK seas, so they get to land some stuff and make it worth running the exercise) for about 2 or 3 days, then the Home Fleet arrives from Scapa Flow and devastates the beaches. RN does take some losses from close range fights with E-boats and the Luftwaffe, but in the end they would have done well to reach the outskirts of London. Even with light armour in the first wave, Kent is not unlike Bocage country, and they just couldn't have made the distances they would have needed to have a real chance of success.
 

Director

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Of course, the elephant in the room is the British response - or utter fumbling catastrophic failure of titanic proportions - to Operation Cerberus.

Admittedly, this was not an invasion fleet. Admittedly, the Royal Navy was looking... somewhere else... but still. Three of the biggest and most dangerous German warships find that no-one is paying any attention to them at all. They could go out into the Atlantic, or up into the Channel, or maybe into the mouth of the Thames with a broom tied to the mast...

This is the sole incident that gives me pause when considering the Royal Navy's response to SeaLion. Wellllll... not strictly true. There's the Admiralty getting Bismarck's course 180-degrees wrong, you know, a few things like that. But the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force watching helplessly while three German warships steam unmolested up the English Channel... that's horrifying.

Secret Master, you can commit major German or Italian warships to the Channel in-game but in practice it's much harder. They'd have to sortie from Wilhelmshaven, or Kiel, or maybe Trondheim or Brest. That alone gives away the timetable and any element of surprise that SeaLion would have. And it gives the Royal Navy a long stretch of open water in which they can fight and sink them without those pesky German planes getting in the way.

If you can establish total air supremacy over the Channel, and have enough naval-strike planes to keep the Royal Navy completely at bay, then you still have to cross. And I don't think the Germans can do it during daylight hours alone. If they're still at sea in the dark they're lost.
 
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Secret Master

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Secret Master, you can commit major German or Italian warships to the Channel in-game but in practice it's much harder. They'd have to sortie from Wilhelmshaven, or Kiel, or maybe Trondheim or Brest. That alone gives away the timetable and any element of surprise that SeaLion would have.

Unless you are running a sortie to just sucker out the RN so you can fight them.

The opposite of Cerebrus is a possibility: the Royal Navy gets so used to playing tag with the Axis in the North Sea or off the coast of France that they never know when or if the invasion is happening. But if enough Axis naval assets are at sea, they have no choice but to go out and fight.

Unless the RN just sits back and lets the invasion force land and then tries to interdict. But then we are a situation where even partial failure to interdict the invasion could be really bad given British assets in England under the scenario I postulated. How badly would the morale of the British troops be affected by the Royal Navy just letting the Axis land assets while the Luftwaffe controls the skies?

And it gives the Royal Navy a long stretch of open water in which they can fight and sink them without those pesky German planes getting in the way.

If you can establish total air supremacy over the Channel, and have enough naval-strike planes to keep the Royal Navy completely at bay, then you still have to cross. And I don't think the Germans can do it during daylight hours alone. If they're still at sea in the dark they're lost.

Well, air supremacy is a given. Who invades across the English Channel without air supremacy? ;)

But your point about daylight is a valid concern. I'm not sure the Germans, even with nice transports, have the expertise to pull of Sea Lion effectively in terms of training and doctrines.
 
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