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aitaituo

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2 considerations:

1. Historical June 1940. Germany isn't prepared at all.
The air campaign proved somewhat effective until Goering switched to strategic bombing. There are many people (incl. Brits) who saw the British defences close to a collapse before that. The air fields, radar stations and overall interceptor force were badly battered. Had Goering continued to target them, Sealion would at least have been a bit more viable. I doubt that it would have been possible though.

2. Germany prepares for Sealion from 1938 onwards.
Specialized landing craft instead of the non-existing transport fleet. More long-range fighters, more tac bombers, etc.
Had Germany known that in summer of 1940 there would be a short time window for Sealion and properly prepared for that, then Sealion could have succeeded.
However, there's zero plausible reason how Germany would have known that. Nobody would have expected a French defeat within 6 weeks!
-----------------

Realistically Germany could have done better in not switching to strategic bombardment and instead continue the focus on British defences. That would have given Sealion a minimal chance, but not more.

Yeah, the only way for Sea Lion to hit even a 10% chance of success requires the Nazis to start drawing board preparations in 1933, actively preparing the Kriegsmarine in 1934, and devoting all Luftwaffe preparations around it from the reestablishment in 1935. Then Britain has to stick to their historical path in preparing to fight Germany. And Hitler needs a time machine to gain the benefit of hindsight.

Naval invasions are just really difficult. Germany had a crummy navy and the UK had a huge one that had been using the Wooden Wall doctrine for centuries.

But as long as we're speculating, what does everybody think of sneaking Wehrmacht divisions into the Scottish Highlands via u-boat? Sure, it would take weeks or months and they'd have to build special submarines to bring in any vehicles, but surely in the meantime they could hide under some clansmen's kilts.
 
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If the Germany player focuses on a bit more navy and air force then I bet it will be possible in game but there is always a trade off as you may not be able to then attack the USSR as soon and as strong as was the case historically.
 

Axe99

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But as long as we're speculating, what does everybody think of sneaking Wehrmacht divisions into the Scottish Highlands via u-boat? Sure, it would take weeks or months and they'd have to build special submarines to bring in any vehicles, but surely in the meantime they could hide under some clansmen's kilts.

Haha, aye, but then they'd be in all sorts of bother when they got to Hadrian's wall :).
 
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Cpt Crash

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Without the intention of too much derailing the thread, I wish to ask another kind of question. What if Hitler had not halted Guderian's Panzers, what if the BEF had been captured? Would England have accepted Hitler's calls for peace?

Opinions, reasonings?

I doubt it very much. However, that would have drastically altered the type of invasion required, thus making it all much more feasible.

Even if Hitler had a crystal ball that would illuminate the events of early '40, Germany would have been very hard pressed to build the ships and barges required for an invasion of the historical Sea Lion scope.

The only possible chance for a successful invasion (with historical pre-events) would have been with the air landing assault--within weeks of the armistice with France. A LW general (forgot his name) suggested, after touring the Dunkirk evacuation area, that if the British were given even a month to rearm, it would be too late. He proposed putting some Mt divisions under LW command and seize a port by early July, 1940. Supplies and reinforcements then could be shuttled in, rather than attempting to hold a sea lane open. The assumption was that the UK army would be in no condition to fight for a while--it was mostly dispersed and lacked even basic equipment--but that situation would not last for long. As it was, his suggestion was pushed aside in favor of a large scale amphibious invasion--even though Reader knew it could not succeed (as the OP pointed out). Reader did convince the high command to reduce the size of the invasion force, but that really would not have changed the outcome.

There is one other little issue in all this. Even if the LW did gain air supremacy over the landing areas and the Chanel, it would not have been decisive. At that point in time the LW did not have the weapons required to sink or even significantly damage large warships. There should be not doubt that Churchill would have sent whatever it took of the RN to destroy any invasion--and that is what would have happened---it would have been an absolute disaster for Germany.

With no Barbarossa, Sea Lion '41 becomes a possibility. Germany did have the factory space and resources need for a mass expansion of a/c production. However, the manpower for such an expansion could not be attained with the demands for Barbarossa. The a/c industries were very labor intensive.
 
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Secret Master

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Consider detouring through Gettysburg but it is still raining.

You know who else took a detour through Gettysburg?

Johnston Pettigrew, leader of Confederate forces that encountered Buford's cavalry on day 1 of Gettysburg.

Admit it, someone thought I was about to Godwin the thread and say Hitler... ;)

Okay, Secret Master - what's YOUR plan for a SeaLion victory?

From a 1936 start?

Germany, by herself, cannot achieve such a defeat in time for a 1940 Sea Lion even with a massive naval investment in 1936. Sure, the Luftwaffe can bomb the RN all it wants, and Germany can build a real set of transports rather than river barges if she starts early enough, and maybe the BEF can be wiped out so thoroughly that the Royal Army is in terrible shape. But there is no real way for the Royal Navy to be damaged enough to render an invasion possible with just Germany doing it.

Sea Lion can only work if the RN faces a significant defeat at sea. To get that defeat, the Germans have to work with the Italians and Japanese. That means Japan has to be attacking Britain when the war starts in 1939. It also means that the Italians need to secure Malta in 1939 and force the Royal Navy into multiple battles.

I hate to sound like Mahan, but Italy, Japan, and Germany need to force the RN into one or more significant sea battles that result in defeats for the RN. One victory won't cut it. You need multiple defeats like the loss of Prince of Wales. Wiping out the entire RN is not feasible, but with substantial losses, the Admiralty is faced with ugly choices. Either the British spread the RN out in an attempt to continue contesting the Med and Pacific, or they capitulate and let Japan attack Australia, New Zealand, and India with impunity while the Italians hold the Med.

Losing either the Med or Pacific might be okay, but I am not sure if it is politically acceptable to leave both the Med and the Pacific unprotected by capital ships (what would Canada and South Africa think if the RN let the Aussies and Kiwis fend for themselves? What would happen politically in India if India was left bereft of naval protection? What would happen in domestic politics if both the Suez and Singapore fell?). With the RN spread thin, a concerted attempt to attack Britain at home might be feasible if Germany has real transports, the Luftwaffe gets good at bombing ships, Japan and Italy manage to get their navies in place in the Atlantic (similar to Overlord), and the German army is ready to go by sometime in the middle of 1940, before the Brits can replace army losses. In such a situation, there is a real chance of Sea Lion being a threat. (A chance, not a certainty.)

Now, I know Director and few others are about to say, "But Secret Master, the RN will never leave Britain unprotected at home, colonies and Commonwealth be damned!" But that's the trick, isn't it? The goal is to win the war, not to specifically invade southern England. If the RN retreats to Scapa Flow to lick its wounds and the rest of the British Empire and Dominions are given a thrashing by the Axis powers, then I suppose Sea Lion doesn't work. But now the empire itself is falling apart. You'd have to ask yourself whether Hitler's overtures of peace, including offers to let the British Empire remain relatively intact in exchange for hegemony on the continent, are more appealing as the overseas possessions start to fall like dominoes.

The hypothesis I want to put forward is this: a credible threat posted by Sea Lion (real transports and all the other things I list), coupled with the erosion or end of British naval hegemony due to multiple naval defeats, is more or less checkmate for Britain. If Britain has to choose to either protect her overseas possessions or the Home Islands, its over and they should seek terms. But it only works if both concepts are in play. If Germany does not have a credible Sea Lion in place, then Britain can weather the defeats overseas. If the combined navies of Germany, Italy, and Japan cannot defeat the RN enough to erode her hegemony of the seas, then a credible Sea Lion is a complete waste.

In short, my strategy for Sea Lion assumes political, diplomatic, and military coordination and insane good luck on the part of the Axis powers that is as much of a fantasy as the fan-boy wank fest you proposed on the first page. :)
 
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Big Nev

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You know who else took a detour through Gettysburg?

Johnston Pettigrew, leader of Confederate forces that encountered Buford's cavalry on day 1 of Gettysburg.

Admit it, someone thought I was about to Godwin the thread and say Hitler... ;)



From a 1936 start?

Germany, by herself, cannot achieve such a defeat in time for a 1940 Sea Lion even with a massive naval investment in 1936. Sure, the Luftwaffe can bomb the RN all it wants, and Germany can build a real set of transports rather than river barges if she starts early enough, and maybe the BEF can be wiped out so thoroughly that the Royal Army is in terrible shape. But there is no real way for the Royal Navy to be damaged enough to render an invasion possible with just Germany doing it.

Sea Lion can only work if the RN faces a significant defeat at sea. To get that defeat, the Germans have to work with the Italians and Japanese. That means Japan has to be attacking Britain when the war starts in 1939. It also means that the Italians need to secure Malta in 1939 and force the Royal Navy into multiple battles.

I hate to sound like Mahan, but Italy, Japan, and Germany need to force the RN into one or more significant sea battles that result in defeats for the RN. One victory won't cut it. You need multiple defeats like the loss of Prince of Wales. Wiping out the entire RN is not feasible, but with substantial losses, the Admiralty is faced with ugly choices. Either the British spread the RN out in an attempt to continue contesting the Med and Pacific, or they capitulate and let Japan attack Australia, New Zealand, and India with impunity while the Italians hold the Med.

Losing either the Med or Pacific might be okay, but I am not sure if it is politically acceptable to leave both the Med and the Pacific unprotected by capital ships (what would Canada and South Africa think if the RN let the Aussies and Kiwis fend for themselves? What would happen politically in India if India was left bereft of naval protection? What would happen in domestic politics if both the Suez and Singapore fell?). With the RN spread thin, a concerted attempt to attack Britain at home might be feasible if Germany has real transports, the Luftwaffe gets good at bombing ships, Japan and Italy manage to get their navies in place in the Atlantic (similar to Overlord), and the German army is ready to go by sometime in the middle of 1940, before the Brits can replace army losses. In such a situation, there is a real chance of Sea Lion being a threat. (A chance, not a certainty.)

Now, I know Director and few others are about to say, "But Secret Master, the RN will never leave Britain unprotected at home, colonies and Commonwealth be damned!" But that's the trick, isn't it? The goal is to win the war, not to specifically invade southern England. If the RN retreats to Scapa Flow to lick its wounds and the rest of the British Empire and Dominions are given a thrashing by the Axis powers, then I suppose Sea Lion doesn't work. But now the empire itself is falling apart. You'd have to ask yourself whether Hitler's overtures of peace, including offers to let the British Empire remain relatively intact in exchange for hegemony on the continent, are more appealing as the overseas possessions start to fall like dominoes.

The hypothesis I want to put forward is this: a credible threat posted by Sea Lion (real transports and all the other things I list), coupled with the erosion or end of British naval hegemony due to multiple naval defeats, is more or less checkmate for Britain. If Britain has to choose to either protect her overseas possessions or the Home Islands, its over and they should seek terms. But it only works if both concepts are in play. If Germany does not have a credible Sea Lion in place, then Britain can weather the defeats overseas. If the combined navies of Germany, Italy, and Japan cannot defeat the RN enough to erode her hegemony of the seas, then a credible Sea Lion is a complete waste.

In short, my strategy for Sea Lion assumes political, diplomatic, and military coordination and insane good luck on the part of the Axis powers that is as much of a fantasy as the fan-boy wank fest you proposed on the first page. :)

I was trying to think of a Gettysburg thing, but my knowledge of the American War of Independence is somewhat limited.

WOT? o_O

Firstly, Japan was giving the RN a hard time. PoW & Repulse, the three week Indian Ocean cruise. So that's already in-place, it just needs to be brought forward a year or so. Is this possible? Doubtful, but a definite maybe.

Italy was trying. But their battleships had crap main armament and the high command were all but useless. The navy was up for it, but were held back by poor equipment, poor doctrine & (IMHO) even poorer leadership.

Now, all that said, even if the German allies manage to achieve more victories at sea (which basically means, somehow, getting half the Kido Butai in to the Med') there is still this...

Multiple naval losses of capital ships which require the re-distribution of RN heavy units isn't going to seriously deplete the 100+ destroyers that are on-hand to defend the English Chanel. Move the battleships to where they are needed, support them with an appropriate screening force and the RN still has those hundred destroyers (and God only knows how many smaller craft) to fight what? Scharnhorst, Gneisenau a CA & a handful of destroyers & E-boats? Keep the Renown & Repulse at Pembroke (there was a MASSIVE RAF flying boat base there so... positioning a squadron of Hurricanes there to protect them wouldn't be a problem) or Scapa Flow so that they are available to intercept the German battlecruisers if they sortie.

Bismarck still needs to be countered when she's finished, but Hood, PoW and a few other BBs can be retained and, if you wait that long (end Sept 1940), you've probably waited too long. You don't want to be conducting any kind of naval op' in the English Chanel in October or later. Really you don't.


So, even if Germany has managed to build a few thousand proper landing craft, the RN doesn't need BBs to defend the island. With the light units they had (which would always be expected to do the heavy lifting anyway) it would still be over very very quickly and it wouldn't end well for the Wehrmacht.

IMHO of course ;)
 
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Swinds

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I don't think that Invasion would be the problem if the BEF was captured in France.

I would argue and it is only my opinion that Churchill would have struggled to stop the parts of the government (Halifax is normally highlighted) from kicking him out and finding a peace with Germany. It is only my opinion but without the BEF back in England there was no Army and it would have been much more difficult to argue the continuation of the war.

Training and equipping replacements would have taken more than 6 months. A lot is made of the loss of heavy equipment at Dunkirk but the loss of trained manpower was something that was more of a problem.

Germany's loss of 250,000 men at Stralingrad was bad but there were many other trained men already in the line. It was a percentage of the total manpower on the eastern front. Even then it was bad.

250,000+ men of the BEF was almost all the British Army.

Don't shoot me for my opinion
 
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EU3NOOB

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IRL answer: Off-handed no. In-game answer: Probably. It'd be boring otherwise.

But as long as we're speculating, what does everybody think of sneaking Wehrmacht divisions into the Scottish Highlands via u-boat? Sure, it would take weeks or months and they'd have to build special submarines to bring in any vehicles, but surely in the meantime they could hide under some clansmen's kilts.

No. WWII era subs simply didn't have the cargo space to do this. Hell, even with modern subs I would dismiss anyone suggesting such an Op as a loon.
 
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Axe99

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... the RN still has those hundred destroyers (and God only knows how many smaller craft) to fight what?

It's danged hard to get an exact (or near-exact) number on the MTBs and MGBs they had available in mid-late 1940, but a very rough guess on the conservative side would be around 50 MTBs, probably a similar-ish number again of MGBs and 60 Fairmile Type B motor launches which were fitted with TTs for anti-invasion work (the last number isn't a rough guess, the other two are). Enough to cause a fair bit of trouble I'd wager.
 

Adonnus

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If it did "succeed" that success would be nothing more than a very temporary foothold on the British mainland with near 100% loss rates for every single soldier sent out. Kinda hard to see it as a "success" but then again, a temporary gain, followed by a massive retreat (probably none in this case) with massive casualties has been known as a victory for at least one of history's insane dictators - Saddam Hussein.

IMO even if the whole BEF was captured in France the invasion would still fail miserably due the enormous loss rates at sea due to unsuitable equipment and British air and sea superiority, and more importantly even if they captured London they wouldn't be able to be effectively reinforced or supplied.
 
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Had Hitler thrown over his plans to attack the USSR and concentrated on building up air and sea assets, and entry of the USA into the war been avoided, I cannot see any reason why an attempt at Sealion might not have been made in, say, '42 or '43 - but this is taking us into alt-hist territory.

The assessment of the Admiralty that a raid of 80,000 troops might have also been possible in 1940 also at least bears considering, even if such a raid would most likely have been pure suicide.
 
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2 considerations:

1. Historical June 1940. Germany isn't prepared at all.
The air campaign proved somewhat effective until Goering switched to strategic bombing. There are many people (incl. Brits) who saw the British defences close to a collapse before that. The air fields, radar stations and overall interceptor force were badly battered. Had Goering continued to target them, Sealion would at least have been a bit more viable. I doubt that it would have been possible though.

2. Germany prepares for Sealion from 1938 onwards.
Specialized landing craft instead of the non-existing transport fleet. More long-range fighters, more tac bombers, etc.
Had Germany known that in summer of 1940 there would be a short time window for Sealion and properly prepared for that, then Sealion could have succeeded.
However, there's zero plausible reason how Germany would have known that. Nobody would have expected a French defeat within 6 weeks!
-----------------

Realistically Germany could have done better in not switching to strategic bombardment and instead continue the focus on British defences. That would have given Sealion a minimal chance, but not more.

Just add a win in BoB, prerequisite for any landing. And a closed sack of Dunkirk. And that the planned use of gas wouldn't delay any Nazi-progress till the momentum is gone. There are so many questionsmarks that it is doubtful if the an invasion could have succeeded. Under some conditions, it was of course possible. But as it was said also said before, the question is how UK would have reacted towards it. Because there is no way for pre war Germany to hide such a big preparation.

Possible? Yes. Successful? Certainly not.

What's irritating is that many Forummembers point to Royal Navy strength in an invasion scenario. There is little to no evidence that an interception of an invasion fleet IN THE CHANNEL would be more than an suicidal mission. Horinzontal armor was bad in most of the Homefleets bigger vessels. See asian theater and how history went there.
 
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Guys, what about the French navy? If Germany manage to get her hands on the French Navy with the RN not managing to sink them, they would have got slight more chances? ( IMHO, the only possibility to deafeat uk is sub warfare, with in mind from 1933 to get all the sub needed, at least 150-200 type VII by 1939 and getting started alredy with type XXI development and construction as the war started, instead on focusing on just improving the type VII like donitz did)
 
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What's irritating is that many Forummembers point to Royal Navy strength in an invasion scenario. There is little to no evidence that an interception of an invasion fleet IN THE CHANNEL would be more than an suicidal mission. Horinzontal armor was bad in most of the Homefleets bigger vessels. See asian theater and how history went there.

Kelestra I have no wish to argue and I agree with you on most points but I think you are overestimating the Luftwaffe's ability to hit the RN. The best example I think is Dunkirk which had limit air cover from GB against the full Luftwaffe. I have copied and pasted the Ship sunk list from the wiki link below.

As you can see the RN lost a lot of ships to the Luftwaffe but not an excessive amount and it has to be remembered that some of the Destroyers were stationary picking up troops from piers. All these ships as far as I know were sunk in daylight. It also has to be remembered how desperate GB was here to take off it's Army. The RN sacrificed ships to achieve the desired result. The RAF was over the beaches but only in limited numbers as would be the case had the Luftwaffe won the BoB.

So out of 40 Crusiers and Destroyers 6 were sunk. Therefore if this had been the invasion then 34 ships would have hit the invasion fleet in daylight (while under attack). I and others have pointed out that the invasion fleet would have been at sea during the night and this would have been the best time to hit the invasion fleet. No aircraft and the barges were very very vulnerable. All this misses that Bomber command was relativity untouched and they would have sent every available aircraft. This is no Battle bombers of 12 Sqn against a bridge this is hundreds of aircraft over a wide area. This was because the German Army plan was to land forces over a hundred miles along the coast. Raeder had walked out the meeting after his request to just invade over a few miles of coast was ignored.

Crete is another good example. The Luftwaffe had total air superiority (12 RAF fighter was all there was) and the RN was able to interfere with the seaborne invasion and evacuate a lot of the Allied soldiers.

quote wiki again... this time Crete...
Axis landing attempt, 21/22 May[edit]
An Axis convoy of around 20 caïque's, escorted by the Italian torpedo boat Lupo, tried to land German reinforcements near Maleme. Force D under Rear-AdmiralIrvine Glennie, with three light cruisers and four destroyers, intercepted the convoy before midnight; the convoy turned back and despite being covered by Lupo, lost more than half of its ships.[48] The attacking British ships suffered only slight damage caused by friendly fire.[49] About 2⁄3 of the German force of over 2,000 men was saved by the Italian naval commander, Francesco Mimbelli, against an overwhelmingly superior Allied naval force. A total of 297 German soldiers, two Italian seamen[50] and two British sailors on HMS Orion were killed.[51] Only one caique and one cutter from the convoy reached Crete. The caique landed 3 officers and 110 German soldiers near Cape Spatha, while the cutter arrived safely in Akrotiri, where her crew was engaged by a British Army patrol[52] and took heavy casualties. Of the German soldiers who landed at Akrotriri, only one managed to get through the British lines and join the German paratroopers already fighting for Cane


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crete

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Capture.JPG
 
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I don't think that Invasion would be the problem if the BEF was captured in France.

I would argue and it is only my opinion that Churchill would have struggled to stop the parts of the government (Halifax is normally highlighted) from kicking him out and finding a peace with Germany. It is only my opinion but without the BEF back in England there was no Army and it would have been much more difficult to argue the continuation of the war.

Training and equipping replacements would have taken more than 6 months. A lot is made of the loss of heavy equipment at Dunkirk but the loss of trained manpower was something that was more of a problem.

Germany's loss of 250,000 men at Stralingrad was bad but there were many other trained men already in the line. It was a percentage of the total manpower on the eastern front. Even then it was bad.

250,000+ men of the BEF was almost all the British Army.

Don't shoot me for my opinion

No, not going to shoot you.

Just point out the error of your ways.... :p


OK, yeah. Without the rescue of the BEF there were only about 5 Canadian infantry divisions (which had been sent to France but were withdrawn before they saw any action) the second BEF which was composed of the 1st Armoured division and three more infantry divisions.
So there were, at least, eight infantry and one armoured division plus any Territorials that had been mobilised in the South of England, plus any other formations that had been mobilised but not yet sent to France.
Sufficient, I think to deal with the poor sodden (as in soaking wet) remnants of the first wave of division that manage to survive the slaughter that would be inflicted by the RN.
And there won’t be a second wave or any reinforcements.

Guys, what about the French navy? If Germany manage to get her hands on the French Navy with the RN not managing to sink them, they would have got slight more chances? ( IMHO, the only possibility to deafeat uk is sub warfare, with in mind from 1933 to get all the sub needed, at least 150-200 type VII by 1939 and getting started alredy with type XXI development and construction as the war started, instead on focusing on just improving the type VII like donitz did)


French navy?

You mean the un-finished battleships that didn't even have all their guns installed and litle to no ammunition.

Yeah, they'd be deadly.

They had also promised that they would not join forces with, or allow themselves to be captured by Germany.

And quite a few of them were already working hand-in-hand with the RN so... no. I don't think the French navy would be a problem.

Although, if worst came to worst, it would give the British battleships something to shoot at without having to trapse all the way to Mers El Kébir.
 
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OK, yeah. Without the rescue of the BEF there were only about 5 Canadian infantry divisions (which had been sent to France but were withdrawn before they say any action) the second BEF which was composed of the 1st Armoured division and three more infantry divisions.
So there were, at least, eight infantry and one armoured division plus any Territorials that had been mobilised in the South of England, plus any other formations that had been mobilised but not yet sent to France.
Sufficient, I think to deal with the poor sodden (as in soaki

MMMMMM... lol I almost never disagree so wiki must be wrong ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_order_of_battle
 

scroggin

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No, not going to shoot you.

Just point out the error of your ways.... :p


OK, yeah. Without the rescue of the BEF there were only about 5 Canadian infantry divisions (which had been sent to France but were withdrawn before they saw any action) the second BEF which was composed of the 1st Armoured division and three more infantry divisions.
So there were, at least, eight infantry and one armoured division plus any Territorials that had been mobilised in the South of England, plus any other formations that had been mobilised but not yet sent to France.
Sufficient, I think to deal with the poor sodden (as in soaking wet) remnants of the first wave of division that manage to survive the slaughter that would be inflicted by the RN.
And there won’t be a second wave or any reinforcements.




French navy?

You mean the un-finished battleships that didn't even have all their guns installed and litle to no ammunition.

Yeah, they'd be deadly.

They had also promised that they would not join forces with, or allow themselves to be captured by Germany.

And quite a few of them were already working hand-in-hand with the RN so... no. I don't think the French navy would be a problem.

Although, if worst came to worst, it would give the British battleships something to shoot at without having to trapse all the way to Mers El Kébir.
In 1940 commonwealth and empire divisions were coming ready for deployment. So had Germany