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Was Sea Lion possible?
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It has been an arduous journey, but you've finally reached the last refuge of those who have nothing meaningful to say. Fare thee well, we hardly knew ye.
I agree sealion was impossible historically.
In fact its a zero sum game, you cannot have the chance to defeat the USSR if you plan for sealion.
However, from what i have read, I dont think the battle of Britain was a impossible for Germany.
I just wonder what the outcome would have been if Germany had won the BoB, perhaps it would have been an even more awkward situation for German high command as they would be constantly flying over the UK to maintain superiority, stretching finite resources even further.
In fact its a zero sum game, you cannot have the chance to defeat the USSR if you plan for sealion.
However, from what i have read, I dont think the battle of Britain was a impossible for Germany.
I just wonder what the outcome would have been if Germany had won the BoB, perhaps it would have been an even more awkward situation for German high command as they would be constantly flying over the UK to maintain superiority, stretching finite resources even further.
I agree with your conclusions. Germany would have had a lest costly air war if they won the BoB, as they could leverage their air superiority to prevent the UK from building up military hardware but it would have devolved into a war of attrition until america enters the war and sends relief. Germany was never going to win a war of attrition.
Very interesting article
source:
http://www.allworldwars.com/Conversations-with-a-Stuka-Pilot-Paul-Werner-Hozzel.html
General Hozzel: I will give a short presentation about our being involved in the air battle of England.
The first strategic operation in the history of aerial warfare, the Battle of England, began with the keyword "Eagle's Day 13 August". I/Stuka 1, jointly with II/Stuka 2, was put into combat action against the British fighter base of Filton, about 80 kms north of Warmwell. On the assumption that our attack would come as a complete surprise, we were to hit the "Hurricanes" and "Spitfires" in their boxes before they were given a chance to take off. We, as pinpoint dive bombing specialists, were ready for our targets, but we had not reckoned with what our "host" had in store for us, as will soon be seen. That morning we had taken off, with about 80 JU-87s in Angers, landing in Dinard for our jump off to the coast. Assigned to us as fighter escort for the planned Stuka attack was a Jagdgeschwader (Fighter Wing) 53 under the command of its young Commodore, my successful training comrade, Major Baron von Maltzahn, and a Geschwader (Wing) consisting of twin-engined heavy ME-110 fighters. The participation of the latter in that action was, unfortunately, only of symbolic value because the ME-110s were too clumsy and no match for the British fighter aircraft. Our heavy fighters needed their own fighter escort.
We took off; picked up our fighter escort over Guernsey. Then, climbing to an altitude of 4,000 meters, we headed for the enemy. The escort planes were buzzing around us—a comforting feeling. Above the channel the weather was quite clear, but when reaching the English coast we met with a closed layer of clouds which extended over the country as far as we could see, at an altitude of about 3,000 meters. We could not guess the altitude of the cloud cover above the ground, hence, it was impossible to approach our target in clear sight of it. We had no alternative but to continue on our course for another 15 minutes, then to dive blind through the clouds hoping that we would emerge above the target with sufficient freedom of motion. It was a most doubtful assumption, as we should soon realize. All of a sudden our British "comrades" shot up like torpedoes through the clouds, each plane vehemently firing from its eight barrels at our unit now flying in wide open formation. With the 250-kg bomb, visibly suspended from our fuselage, each of our Stuka bomber crews sat, in the literal sense of the word, on a powder keg. Now the first explosions were heard—a sudden fireball—and all was over. Our fighter and destroyer planes dived on the enemy and so tied down a great number of attackers, but many of them were still left to us. We, with our weaker guns and burdened as we were with our bomb loads, were unable to ward them off. We had no choice but to dive down and drop our bombs on the coastal port installations, then to return in a hedgehopping flight across the channel to our home base. Thus we escaped further attacks, if only from below. With difficulty, I was able to assemble my Gruppe, thus increasing our firepower in defense of the British fighters pursuing us. Many a Stuka fell victim to the pursuers in single flight above the Channel. Having landed again in Dinard, we found that both Gruppen had lost about one-third of their planes. The rest of us were pretty heavily damaged by enemy fire. We soon learned that other Stuka Gruppen had met with the same fate that day. The German Command had profoundly erred in judging the strength of the British fighter forces which, at that time, were twice as strong as had been assumed. Our Stuka Gruppen were, all the same, thrown into battle again, twice or even three times, with the result that they suffered further unbearable losses.
In the end, reason got the upper hand with the Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe. It was realized that in view of the heavy losses any further Stuka actions against the British Island could not be justified. We were consequently "withdrawn from service" for the time being, so as to allow our heavily decimated forces to rehabilitate in preparation for new operations.
Moderator: Does anyone in the audience or on the panel have any comments or questions?
Dr Stolfi: I think a comment might be interesting. With the Stukas against Britain the situation was that the Germans were not able to achieve air superiority with the fighters and the apparent lesson is that when you do not have that air superiority, what has come out erroneously, is that the Stukas at this time were chalked off. I think many of you in the audience assume that roughly after the Battle of Britain, and during most of the Second World War, the Stuka was an obsolete aircraft and ceased to exist. I think here the historical lesson is a very sensitive and esoteric thing. I think that what happened was that when you do not have air superiority, especially with high-quality fighters like the British had, these types of attack operations were exceedingly difficult. I think, still, that it was possible for the Germans with the appropriate tactics to have used the Stuka somehow or other. What has happened historically is the Stuka was chalked off after this, and this is an erroneous interpretation of the war. The Stuka went on later in the war to be the big killer of ships in the Mediterranean and probably the most effective killer of ships in the Second World War as a specific weapon system. On the Eastern front, the Stuka went on after this disastrous experience, which I think was generically an air superiority experience but not anything necessarily to do with dive bombing Stukas. On the Eastern front, the Stuka held its own very comfortably for the rest of the war. The Stuka was particularly impressive in the Mediterranean against British ships after the English campaign.
Colonel Dilger: Along that line, General Hozzel, what were the losses in a relative sense of other type aircraft like the ME-109 or whatever else went over to Britain?
General Hozzel: Not as much as we had, but they had severe losses as well. It was necessary to end that air battle over England. The losses were not as severe with the other bomber units or the fighters.
Dr Stolfi: I think a comment may be in order. The Stukas in the first several attacks were hurt very badly. Now when you look statistically and you spread this thing out in time, I think what the General is saying is that the Stuka losses were more severe than the HE-111 losses. When you spread this thing out in time, Stuka attacks were stopped but the HE-111 attacks went on for a couple more months. When you look at the relative losses that the HE-111 developed over a considerably longer period of time they lost probably as much; possibly even more. So there is a question of time on this thing. There were no single attacks I think in which the HE-111 suffered quite that much, but ultimately they lost just about as many aircraft too. Eventually, they had to be pulled off the operation also, only it took them a couple of months.
source:
http://www.allworldwars.com/Conversations-with-a-Stuka-Pilot-Paul-Werner-Hozzel.html
General Hozzel: I will give a short presentation about our being involved in the air battle of England.
The first strategic operation in the history of aerial warfare, the Battle of England, began with the keyword "Eagle's Day 13 August". I/Stuka 1, jointly with II/Stuka 2, was put into combat action against the British fighter base of Filton, about 80 kms north of Warmwell. On the assumption that our attack would come as a complete surprise, we were to hit the "Hurricanes" and "Spitfires" in their boxes before they were given a chance to take off. We, as pinpoint dive bombing specialists, were ready for our targets, but we had not reckoned with what our "host" had in store for us, as will soon be seen. That morning we had taken off, with about 80 JU-87s in Angers, landing in Dinard for our jump off to the coast. Assigned to us as fighter escort for the planned Stuka attack was a Jagdgeschwader (Fighter Wing) 53 under the command of its young Commodore, my successful training comrade, Major Baron von Maltzahn, and a Geschwader (Wing) consisting of twin-engined heavy ME-110 fighters. The participation of the latter in that action was, unfortunately, only of symbolic value because the ME-110s were too clumsy and no match for the British fighter aircraft. Our heavy fighters needed their own fighter escort.
We took off; picked up our fighter escort over Guernsey. Then, climbing to an altitude of 4,000 meters, we headed for the enemy. The escort planes were buzzing around us—a comforting feeling. Above the channel the weather was quite clear, but when reaching the English coast we met with a closed layer of clouds which extended over the country as far as we could see, at an altitude of about 3,000 meters. We could not guess the altitude of the cloud cover above the ground, hence, it was impossible to approach our target in clear sight of it. We had no alternative but to continue on our course for another 15 minutes, then to dive blind through the clouds hoping that we would emerge above the target with sufficient freedom of motion. It was a most doubtful assumption, as we should soon realize. All of a sudden our British "comrades" shot up like torpedoes through the clouds, each plane vehemently firing from its eight barrels at our unit now flying in wide open formation. With the 250-kg bomb, visibly suspended from our fuselage, each of our Stuka bomber crews sat, in the literal sense of the word, on a powder keg. Now the first explosions were heard—a sudden fireball—and all was over. Our fighter and destroyer planes dived on the enemy and so tied down a great number of attackers, but many of them were still left to us. We, with our weaker guns and burdened as we were with our bomb loads, were unable to ward them off. We had no choice but to dive down and drop our bombs on the coastal port installations, then to return in a hedgehopping flight across the channel to our home base. Thus we escaped further attacks, if only from below. With difficulty, I was able to assemble my Gruppe, thus increasing our firepower in defense of the British fighters pursuing us. Many a Stuka fell victim to the pursuers in single flight above the Channel. Having landed again in Dinard, we found that both Gruppen had lost about one-third of their planes. The rest of us were pretty heavily damaged by enemy fire. We soon learned that other Stuka Gruppen had met with the same fate that day. The German Command had profoundly erred in judging the strength of the British fighter forces which, at that time, were twice as strong as had been assumed. Our Stuka Gruppen were, all the same, thrown into battle again, twice or even three times, with the result that they suffered further unbearable losses.
In the end, reason got the upper hand with the Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe. It was realized that in view of the heavy losses any further Stuka actions against the British Island could not be justified. We were consequently "withdrawn from service" for the time being, so as to allow our heavily decimated forces to rehabilitate in preparation for new operations.
Moderator: Does anyone in the audience or on the panel have any comments or questions?
Dr Stolfi: I think a comment might be interesting. With the Stukas against Britain the situation was that the Germans were not able to achieve air superiority with the fighters and the apparent lesson is that when you do not have that air superiority, what has come out erroneously, is that the Stukas at this time were chalked off. I think many of you in the audience assume that roughly after the Battle of Britain, and during most of the Second World War, the Stuka was an obsolete aircraft and ceased to exist. I think here the historical lesson is a very sensitive and esoteric thing. I think that what happened was that when you do not have air superiority, especially with high-quality fighters like the British had, these types of attack operations were exceedingly difficult. I think, still, that it was possible for the Germans with the appropriate tactics to have used the Stuka somehow or other. What has happened historically is the Stuka was chalked off after this, and this is an erroneous interpretation of the war. The Stuka went on later in the war to be the big killer of ships in the Mediterranean and probably the most effective killer of ships in the Second World War as a specific weapon system. On the Eastern front, the Stuka went on after this disastrous experience, which I think was generically an air superiority experience but not anything necessarily to do with dive bombing Stukas. On the Eastern front, the Stuka held its own very comfortably for the rest of the war. The Stuka was particularly impressive in the Mediterranean against British ships after the English campaign.
Colonel Dilger: Along that line, General Hozzel, what were the losses in a relative sense of other type aircraft like the ME-109 or whatever else went over to Britain?
General Hozzel: Not as much as we had, but they had severe losses as well. It was necessary to end that air battle over England. The losses were not as severe with the other bomber units or the fighters.
Dr Stolfi: I think a comment may be in order. The Stukas in the first several attacks were hurt very badly. Now when you look statistically and you spread this thing out in time, I think what the General is saying is that the Stuka losses were more severe than the HE-111 losses. When you spread this thing out in time, Stuka attacks were stopped but the HE-111 attacks went on for a couple more months. When you look at the relative losses that the HE-111 developed over a considerably longer period of time they lost probably as much; possibly even more. So there is a question of time on this thing. There were no single attacks I think in which the HE-111 suffered quite that much, but ultimately they lost just about as many aircraft too. Eventually, they had to be pulled off the operation also, only it took them a couple of months.
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If the axis won and Tommy surrendered then the could snacth the Brits battleships and carriers as war repreations
Churchill did not want to rely on that despite personally knowing the french who promised that.
We don´t have to think it would be a deadly threat if they were added to the german and italian fleet - Winston thought it and therefore ordered Operation Catapult attacking french forces who didn´t expect to be attacked by their former ally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-Kébir
If you would be right and the french fleet (in addition to the german and italian) would have been no threat to the UK then Operation Catapult would have been the unnecessary backstabbing of a former ally and depict Churchill after the Gallipolli disaster as an utter moron. However IMO Churchills estimate was correct and the french navy (in addition to the german and italian and the japanese in the Pacific) would have been a severe threat to the UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Navy#Second_World_War
I've finished going through the French navy class-by-class for my research and it would have absolutely been a threat to to the RN. The big ships not as much, as they didn't have a lot of BBs, and only had a couple of modern ones (although they'd still added more to Italy and Germany's big ships that needed countering), but the two Dunkerque's were built by the French, encouraged by the Brits, as counters to the Deutschlands. If they'd fallen into German hands, the Brits would have gone from having a counter to some of Germany's surface raiders, to having two extra fast BC/BBs to worry about. They also had around as many CAs and CLs as Italy, and a substantial number of destroyers (many of which were very large for destroyers of the pre and early-war period), and a submarine force (the Surcouf was designed as a commerce raider, and I'm sure the Brits were happy that she never got a chance to perform that role).
The French built a number of very fine ships. And the French Navy acquitted itself reasonably well in the actions during the Torch landings. But it remains questionable whether French ships in Vichy or German hands would have been as or more useful than the Italian fleet.
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This is a very good point - were the French sailors sailing them, I still think they could have been very dangerous, but if they needed new crews and training and what-have-you, it would be some time before they were ready to cause trouble. If the Axis were able to get them operational though, I was thinking it might be enough to encourage the Italians to contest the Med more, which could have made the situation there untenable for the Allies. All theorycrafting mind, and I'm no expert, happy to be told I'm talking crazytalk
.
You're not talking crazytalk at all. I just don't think the French and Italians and Germans would be able to put aside their deep and long-lasting differences enough to work effectively together.
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Given the tensions with the UK and the USA, it is reasonable to think that the Axis would have had even worse ones.
What would be left after a successful Sea Lion? The RN would fight to the last.
The only ships that wouldn't be committed to defending the British Isles in the event of an invasion would be the ships overseas or ones that aren't sea worthy. But if the threat of invasion was serious enough, there wouldn't be significant RN forces overseas in the first place. There wouldn't be anything worth capturing if the Germans occupied the Isles.
And on top of that, any ships that didn't get sunk during the invasion would either be interred in neutral ports, sail to the Dominions, or scuttle.
Hell, the French didn't hand their fleet over when their European possessions were fully occupied after the Battle of France. And there was no way for Germany to force them to do so if they had wanted to. When they forced the issue during Case Anton, the result was a spectacular failure.
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This is a very good point - were the French sailors sailing them, I still think they could have been very dangerous, but if they needed new crews and training and what-have-you, it would be some time before they were ready to cause trouble. If the Axis were able to get them operational though, I was thinking it might be enough to encourage the Italians to contest the Med more, which could have made the situation there untenable for the Allies. All theorycrafting mind, and I'm no expert, happy to be told I'm talking crazytalk
Whatever particulars might be debated, simply seizing the French ships would have had a substantial impact on the Axis' naval capabilities. Probably not enough to change anything long term.
On the point that GB would have surrendered it's Navy if they had asked for peace is unlikely that they(We) would have accepted giving up all the Navy.
GB was not defeated, in a very bad state but not defeated so they did not have to except conditions they did not want to accept.
Had Germany invaded and the British Isles occupied then you have a whole different ball game.
GB was not defeated, in a very bad state but not defeated so they did not have to except conditions they did not want to accept.
Had Germany invaded and the British Isles occupied then you have a whole different ball game.
even if the British government agreed to hand over the navy the sailors themselves would likely scuttle the fleet like the Germans did in 1919
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I am as of right now the only man on earth who knows how it was possible to do a successful sealion in 1940. But have no fear for I am going to share this knowledge and heavy burden with you fellow warmongers.
We are in late June 1940, Hitler has just cut the baguette in half. The Allies are staggered and doubtful, for their inaction during the course of this year and an half led to a crushing victory of the Reich in Europe.
But the man with the small toothbrush mustache is no fool and he knows he lacks the means to cross 33km of water so he calls his small eyed rice lover friend Yonai. Together they make a glorious plan!
It starts a bit before Christmas eve with a total ceasefire in the theatres where Japan is involved, even though the nipponeys share no love for the man we hanged to a cross, but the other rice loving folk fall for it. The truce is to last till new year.
They grab their boats and in a struck of genius they avoid going through the Indian ocean and around Africa and decide to go through the north pole with this bad boy here shelling ice in front of the fleet.
(Ahhh the Yamato.... yes it flies, can go into space and shoots lasers!) SUGOI
They say to the random soviet living in Siberia that they just want to help Santa and all is good.
Going on, this kickass fleet arrives from the North and park the boats in Narvik and after syncing with the toothbrush man they go on a cruise sending all the helpless RN to the bottom of the seas and with lasers, thunder and lightning shore bombardments they enable the würstchens to successfully check out in London.
Of course the United States demanded justification for the outrageous actions that just happened, but the Japs justified saying that Santa's real name was Klaus and well he only had gifts for the Axis.
Merry Christmas
We are in late June 1940, Hitler has just cut the baguette in half. The Allies are staggered and doubtful, for their inaction during the course of this year and an half led to a crushing victory of the Reich in Europe.
But the man with the small toothbrush mustache is no fool and he knows he lacks the means to cross 33km of water so he calls his small eyed rice lover friend Yonai. Together they make a glorious plan!
It starts a bit before Christmas eve with a total ceasefire in the theatres where Japan is involved, even though the nipponeys share no love for the man we hanged to a cross, but the other rice loving folk fall for it. The truce is to last till new year.
They grab their boats and in a struck of genius they avoid going through the Indian ocean and around Africa and decide to go through the north pole with this bad boy here shelling ice in front of the fleet.
(Ahhh the Yamato.... yes it flies, can go into space and shoots lasers!) SUGOI
They say to the random soviet living in Siberia that they just want to help Santa and all is good.
Going on, this kickass fleet arrives from the North and park the boats in Narvik and after syncing with the toothbrush man they go on a cruise sending all the helpless RN to the bottom of the seas and with lasers, thunder and lightning shore bombardments they enable the würstchens to successfully check out in London.
Of course the United States demanded justification for the outrageous actions that just happened, but the Japs justified saying that Santa's real name was Klaus and well he only had gifts for the Axis.
Merry Christmas
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If the UK became a puppet like an ingame one Germany could force them to hand over their navy
Main (History)
if
magic = true
then
Germany = Germany + British Navy
else
British Navy = Scapa Flow
end
end
end
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