Was Operation Typhoon Winnable?

[Easy-Kill]

Agreed, there is always another perspective. And, yes, it was respect for those who lived around him that goaded Rabe into action.

His actions were still above the vast majority of people who actively chose to look on and do nothing, which leads into your next point (and apologies for the fragmented reply, I think it kind of takes a turn away from Robert specifically here)

Personally, I look at the actions of individuals, not groups. I do not think the vast majority of Germans had any clue what was going on behind the barbed wire, and asking questions was detrimental not only to your health, but the health of your loved ones. The Gestapo serves a higher power, and they do not not play fair.

There was an interview with a boy who grew up idolizing Hitler, a member of the Hitler youth, who felt intimately the charisma Hitler exuded. He stated the Jews were needed for slave labor, to keep the factories running to release troops into the field; after the war, seeing the resources poured into the Camps at the expense of the army, it caused a sea change in his understanding of the Reich and has spent the rest of his life asking questions rather than repeating Hitler's answers.

The widely accepted point that the vast majority of Germans had no knowledge of the slave and death camps has been disproved in recent works. Tooze talks around the point that all Germans were aware of the camps and aware of the fact that slave labour was a part of every day life, and that many complained about the minimalist rations, not because of their humanist compunctions, but because it drastically reduced productivity.

Another recent book by Gellatley 'Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany', specifically examines public reports to examine how much was known by the German public and concludes that not only did they know, they were at best bystanders and in many ways supported and contributed to the process. The execution of prisoners at Dachau was reported in the press as early as 1933 and Hitler had been writing about his ideals since the 20s.

Then there was the Wehrmacht which was an active participant. Etc.

Stories like Oskar Schindler and John Rabe reaffirm my faith in humanity. These are flawed human beings, card carrying Nazis, who chose humanity over the Party when put on the horns of a dilemna. Rabe, taking a personal risk, saved the lives of others; he was punished by his own nation for trying to retell the truth of the attrocity, then punished again by the Allies simply because he was a Nazi.

When all is lost and you are holding a gun to your own head, Edmund Dantes sails the Pharoan into Marsaille's Harbor and you are saved by the kindnesses you have shown to others in the past.

But Dante's was also responsible for the death of Eduard Villefort and placed all those he loved in jeopardy to achieve his goal.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

But Dante's was also responsible for the death of Eduard Villefort and placed all those he loved in jeopardy to achieve his goal.

The only individual guilty of Eduard's murder is his mother.

Regarding the other, your comment demands either a lengthy reply examining the ethics of the Abbe Busoni showing why that is an untrue statement - thereby hijacking the thread - or a quick wink and a nod commending your alacrity on picking up the reference.

So, to quote Sindbad the Sailor -

;-)

 

[cpreston5]

Despite the theory that Germans were unlikely to know what KZs looked like being pretty strongly scrutinised, I was still skeptical as to what chance a normal citizen had of seeing one and really being forced to grapple with the reality.

And then I went to Buchenwald, and if you stand around the mini zoo set up for the guards, and visited by the people of Weimar, you can see pretty much the entire expanse of the camp below you.

I think people in the main are pretty shitty, and don't care much about odd, universally reviled minority groups being in concentration camps. Public opinion is very malleable, and very powerful.

You can make people apathetic about almost anything. Pretty much everybody in the west today is apathetic that thousands of people die of entirely preventable causes on a daily basis.

 

[Rich Oliver]

Yes its kind of odd that so many westerners are so very concerned about what Germans living in a dictatorship, in a police state, in a war, having their cities bombed, over half a century ago, did, or failed to do, to protect the "human rights" of the interned, yet seem so very unconcerned about due process of "terrorist" suspects, interned by their own governments in the here and now.

Edit: no aspersions intended against any forum member, I'm just critiquing the general tendency within society.

 

[Easy-Kill]

Yes its kind of odd that so many westerners are so very concerned about what Germans living in a dictatorship, in a police state, in a war, having their cities bombed, over half a century ago, did, or failed to do, to protect the "human rights" of the interned, yet seem so very unconcerned about due process of "terrorist" suspects, interned by their own govenments in the here and now.

Unconcerned about due process of terrorists. The whole reason we have due process is by considering the mistakes of the past and reflecting on how to make things better.

I am sorry that your political views mean that you disagree with how the due process is defined.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Yes its kind of odd that so many westerners are so very concerned about what Germans living in a dictatorship, in a police state, in a war, having their cities bombed, over half a century ago, did, or failed to do, to protect the "human rights" of the interned, yet seem so very unconcerned about due process of "terrorist" suspects, interned by their own governments in the here and now.

Edit: no aspersions intended against any forum member, I'm just critiquing the general tendency within society.

Short answer, the two points do not align. Seeing barbed wire in both places, you are suggesting the imprisonment of a few political prisoners is equivalent to a religious pogrom of millions of human beings. I am guessing for reasons of a personal agenda.

 

[fredinno]

no, this is not intelligible. and yes, hitler sounds like a mustachio-twirling villain.

Germany has ports. They can import stuff. They have railroads, they can import stuff.

There was no need to go and take stuff from the Soviets. NONE. The Soviets were happy to sell stuff to the Germans-they'd been doing it for years, and without their raw materials, the Germans wouldn't have been able to re-arm. So yeah, the notion that "We must invade another country and subjugate their people (and then kill all of them) so we minimize foreign exchange losses" is mustachio-twirling, Saturday morning cartoon bad guy stuff.

Hitler was no different from a Captain Planet villain.

it was in a state of collapse because of the war that Hitler started.

Germany wasn't in a sorry state in 1933 - it was in a Depression, just like the rest of the world. These things happen. He then spent the national treasure not in doing things like, you know, helping people, but building weapons of war.

Sorry, but no.

Hitler needed the stuff from the Soviets, because in a world without free trade (ie the British Blockade), you need everything inside your empire and your 'buddies'.

It was sort of circular logic- to take the land he needed resources...but to take the land...

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

His actions were still above the vast majority of people who actively chose to look on and do nothing, which leads into your next point . . . . The widely accepted point that the vast majority of Germans had no knowledge of the slave and death camps has been disproved in recent works.

You make a good point, but 'No knowlege' is a lot of real estate. There are gradations of understanding, shades of grey, that need to be examined further.

Yes, every German was aware of work camps and that 'Work Shall Set You Free'. Slave labor was needed to fuel industry. A few Jews died dynamiting tunnels for our rocket program and our underground factories, but the Fatherland endures. Yes, this is the pragmatic argument expressed at the time.

Yes, little old ladies made calls to the Gestapo to relocate the family down the hall which annoyed them for . . . reasons. Simoultaneously, other German families were picked up for hiding Jews; so, yes, there is a lot of knowledge that something awful is going on.

But it's like the beginning of Elie Wiesel's 'Night' when an escapee from the Camps returns home to warn everyone, and is laughed off as it can't be that bad. Let's just get on the train and get this relocation over with; it won't be the first time and it won't be the last. Only when they arrived at their destination did they understand.

Industrial murder prioritized over military necessity; this cannot have been common knowledge until the ashes began blowing out of the chimneys. At that point, what can you do that won't bring the Gestapo to your door to question your wife or daughter until you give them whatever answer they desire you to say?

Murder on that scale takes a special breed. Few in number, trained to make hard decisions and go home to their families in the evening as if nothing untoward had occurred during the day. Executives, middle management, these are the guys who scare me; the workmen are easy to come by, every population has a few brutes willing to lord it over another even in Hell.

 

[Yakman]

Hitler needed the stuff from the Soviets, because in a world without free trade (ie the British Blockade), you need everything inside your empire and your 'buddies'.

It was sort of circular logic- to take the land he needed resources...but to take the land...

the soviet union was a buddy.

and yes, you are correct, there was circular logic. Japan did the same thing.

 

[Herbert West]

the soviet union was a buddy.

A buddy that had taken territory from two allies of Germany (Finland, Romania), and a buddy that had spent the last 20 years in a frantic rearmament race, continuously fuelled by the supposed (or real) need to defend itself from the evil fascisti.

Rapallo or not, training schools or not, the USSR and the Third Reich were on an ideological collision course. Once more, the raw materials for finished goods trade was something that strenghtened the USSR on the long run, something both powers knew.

They werent buddies, they were shaking hands while hiding knives behind their backs.

I know you love your "the USSR was Hitler's buddy" hobby-horse, but at this point, you ought to dismount the pile of rubble.

 

[Yakman]

A buddy that had taken territory from two allies of Germany (Finland, Romania), and a buddy that had spent the last 20 years in a frantic rearmament race, continuously fuelled by the supposed (or real) need to defend itself from the evil fascisti.

Rapallo or not, training schools or not, the USSR and the Third Reich were on an ideological collision course. Once more, the raw materials for finished goods trade was something that strenghtened the USSR on the long run, something both powers knew.

They werent buddies, they were shaking hands while hiding knives behind their backs.

I know you love your "the USSR was Hitler's buddy" hobby-horse, but at this point, you ought to dismount the pile of rubble.

our paths are not written in the stars.

there was no need for the germans to invade the ussr. they decided to do it, but it wasn't like this was something that they could have decided not to do.

the hobby horse of "Hitler's gotta fight Stalin" is rubbish.

 

[Easy-Kill]

Hope you're well @Easy-Kill.

Just wanted to expand on this point you make. Frieser's Blitzkrieg Legend offers some military insights into this conundrum, and it meshes well with Tooze's focus on the factors driving the Third Reich's higher level decision making. Frieser's argument is that Hitler thought he had found an operational quickfix to strategic problems. This both drove the victory in France and drove defeat in the SU. Again, it's moving well beyond cartoon caricatures but you've an economy running into large difficulties which needs the SU's resources (human and otherwise) and has a leader willing to roll the dice because, after the Fall of France, he's convinced he's got the tools to get the job done in a summer's campaigning. It's faulty logic which ran down the entire German command structure, but it wasn't irrational. Harrison's work on the SU is fascinating, and he suggests that the question shouldn't be predicated on 'how the Third Reich failed' but on 'how on earth did the SU survive 1941 as a functioning state?'. And that leads us back to your point there - external factors are important. Regardless of how the likes of Mannstein and Speer wrote it up post-war.

Thanks for the book suggestion. I was looking for something to read and picked this up. It is amazing how the theses proposed in Frieser's work are complementary with Tooze's work, despite looking at completely different aspects of the same era. I never realised just how much the German high command were preparing to refight a modernised ww1.

 

[Fanstar1]

our paths are not written in the stars.

there was no need for the germans to invade the ussr. they decided to do it, but it wasn't like this was something that they could have decided not to do.

the hobby horse of "Hitler's gotta fight Stalin" is rubbish.

war between the two was inevitable. Germany's best chance was to attack first while Soviets were reorganizing.

 

[Zebedee]

Thanks for the book suggestion. I was looking for something to read and picked this up. It is amazing how the theses proposed in Frieser's work are complementary with Tooze's work, despite looking at completely different aspects of the same era. I never realised just how much the German high command were preparing to refight a modernised ww1.

I really enjoy Frieser's work. Glad you found it worthwhile. It is curious how well both the military view and the economic view tie together between those two. I found them convincing, with a few fairly minor caveats. If you can lay hands on Frieser's work on Kursk (in DRZW VIII or related essays, sadly I no longer have pdfs of them to share), that's really fascinating too as he explores Hitler's motivations in how the later war (43/44) on the Eastern Front was conducted in terms of his orders.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

our paths are not written in the stars.

there was no need for the germans to invade the ussr. they decided to do it, but it wasn't like this was something that they could have decided not to do.

the hobby horse of "Hitler's gotta fight Stalin" is rubbish.

Yes. It is not logical. Hitler did not have to fight Stalin. Hitler should have pulled up, fortified his borders, and dug in from Poland to France, consolidated his holdings, continued improving his rearmament projects, and reorganize the Axis minors and the Balkans.

However, in Mein Kampf, Hitler lays out the reasons why the Germans must focus their gaze on the East to obtain Liebenstraum; oh, and . . . Jews.

He dictated the book to Hess, who was last seen covered in Astrological symbols trying to make peace with Britain to prevent a prophecy from coming true.

He dedicates the book to Dietrick Eckart, who is steeped in esoteric mysticism.

You and I might not put much faith in Astrology; but Hitler did, and his path East was written in the stars.

 

[Yakman]

Yes. It is not logical. Hitler did not have to fight Stalin. Hitler should have pulled up, fortified his borders, and dug in from Poland to France, consolidated his holdings, continued improving his rearmament projects, and reorganize the Axis minors and the Balkans.

However, in Mein Kampf, Hitler lays out the reasons why the Germans must focus their gaze on the East to obtain Liebenstraum; oh, and . . . Jews.

He dictated the book to Hess, who was last seen covered in Astrological symbols trying to make peace with Britain to prevent a prophecy from coming true.

He dedicates the book to Dietrick Eckart, who is steeped in esoteric mysticism.

You and I might not put much faith in Astrology; but Hitler did, and his path East was written in the stars.

quite poetic.

 

[Yakman]

war between the two was inevitable. Germany's best chance was to attack first while Soviets were reorganizing.

his best chance ended up with a gunshot in a bunker while the Red Army was destroying Berlin.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. There's no evidence of this supposed Soviet invasion plan for Europe. The Soviets always thought that they would be attacked first, and planned accordingly. Turns out, they were right.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

his best chance ended up with a gunshot in a bunker while the Red Army was destroying Berlin.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. There's no evidence of this supposed Soviet invasion plan for Europe. The Soviets always thought that they would be attacked first, and planned accordingly. Turns out, they were right.

Agreed. No plan exists other than the overarching 'Rise of the Proletariat' that threatened the entire Free World as a theory but which lacked operational planning, a timetable, and troops. This is compounded by the fact Heydrich had just tricked Stalin into purging many of his generals from service with a cerebral hemmorhage and the Soviet Army was in no position to threaten anyone in 1941.

Two weeks before the Germans crossed the border into Poland, Russia offered 1 million men to defend Poland if UK/France would agree to an alliance. This is the official Soviet version of the story, some doubt exists as to the details of this plan in the West. But you tell Stalin he is wrong . . . .

Poland wanted nothing to do with 1 million Soviet troops on her soil, and the idea was squashed. The UK and France refuses. So Molotov agrees with Ribbentrop to buy Stalin time.

The United States corporate elite are going around the 'no trade with Germany order' for personal profit. For example: Texaco is selling oil by the tanker to Hitler using South American intermediaries; and George Bush's father, Prescott, is put on trial for treason by the US Senate for dealing with the Nazis. LOTS of American businessmen would love nothing more than to feed Germany munitions and let her take on the Bolsheviks for them.

Then, Hess 'goes crazy' and gets in his specially modified personal long range aircraft and flies to Scotland in one of the most bizarre and least understood episodes in human history. Stalin is absolutely convinced that Hess's flight was to create a secret alliance between UK and Germany to give Hitler a free hand moving East.

So what is a paranoid dictator busy oppressing his own people to do but dig in and fight?

 

[Herbert West]

This is compounded by the fact Heydrich had just tricked Stalin into purging many of his generals from service

No need to lay that one at the nazis feet, that was all Uncle Joe

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

No need to lay that one at the nazis feet, that was all Uncle Joe

Fair enough; Heydrich unmasked a list of traitors that Stalin fed to him, leading to the Purges.