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Easy-Kill

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Was it? That is specifically the question I am asking. Ostensibly, it's on the official checklist of historical reasons; but this does not seem to be their priority once they cross the border. It is a reason, I'm not sure it's the reason.
Yes. It forms the basis of several books laying a focus on the stratego-economics of mass industrialised warfare. Most specifically, it is the primary thesis of Tooze's Wages of destruction.

I still find it exacerbating that any student of ww2 (no matter how amateur) has not taking the tine to read this book yet.
 

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Hmm, this does lend itself to a possible alternative - Stop after Vyazma/Bryansk are pocketed, reduce the pockets, and see what you can do down south with the freed-up supplies; the Soviets need to rebuild the central front anyhow since you're already too close to Moscow to ignore.

Perhaps, but in that stage of the war the Germans were not keen on such opportunistic moves. They wanted decisive, spectacular and radical solutions to Germany's fundamental strategic problem: Germany's isolation in a part of the Eurasian continent poor on the natural resources needed to carry on a protracted war against a world coalition.

Then there were other problems of a more practical nature. The month's pause of AGC after the battle of Smolensk did not lend itself to much rebuilding of its forces. Initially, AGC had to Panzergruppen (later renamed as Panzer Armies), nos. 3rd (Hoth's) in the north and 2nd (Guderian's) in the south. These two Panzergruppen, being the spearpoint of the German offensive, had seen constant fighting since June 22. They had conducted the encirclements at Minsk and Bialystok against the Soviet western front, and later (the first nasty surprise of the campaign for the Germans) another encirclement against the undetected forces of the Soviet second strategic echelon immediately west of Smolensk. At Smolensk, Panzerguppen 3 and 2 had to hold the encircled Soviet forces on their own until the 2nd, 4th and 9th Armies arrived (by means of constant forced marching) to relieve them partly of the task. And not only did they need to fight the Soviet forces trapped within the Smolensk pocket, because (in the second nasty surprise of the campaign for the Germans), the Soviets formed three more Fronts (Western, Bryansk and Reserve) east of Smolensk and hammered at the German armored ring from outside.

After these fights, the two Panzergruppen were exhausted, but even when Hitler decreed the general pause for AGC, these two Panzergruppen were not allowed any rest; Panzergruppe 3 had to execute a gruelling march north to join Leeb's vanguards approaching Leningrad (a march more than 400 km first north and then south to rejoin AGC, made on the vehicle's own tracks and wheels, through marshy and wooded terrain) and Guderian was redirected south and subordinated to Rundstedt's AGS, so he had to conduct yet another enciclement; with a fighting advance that took him 400 km south and then back.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Western, Bryansk and Reserve Fronts kept hammering at the German 2nd, 4th and 9th Armies with decreasing success, leaving them extremely weakened (the main reason for the staggering initial success of Typhoon) until the STAVKA called the attacks off.

When finally Halder managed to convince Hitler to launch the final attack on Moscow, AGC was only "relatively" rested and recovered. Most of September, the infantry had been repelling Soviet attacks, although in well entrenched positions and with relatively light losses. But the German logistical services had been unable to restore a proper supply line to AGC; whatever supplies arrived during these weeks were just enough to enable AGC to defend itself from the Soviet continued attacks, and so it was extremely difficult to build up even modest supply dumps behind German lines to support further advances.

But even worse was the situation of the (newly renamed) Panzer Armies, 2nd, 3rd and 4th (until then subordinated to Leeb's AGN, but now sent by Hitler and the OKH to reinforce AGC). The three Panzer Armies had seen constant combat since June 22, without any proper pause to repair damaged vehicles, and without receiving proper reinforcements.

This was a serious setback for the Germans, because the success of their tactics depended entirely on their mobile forces; as they'd been fighting non-stop since day one, and had no time to rest and had received no reinforcements, they were now seriously weakened.

By October 2, the day Typhoon was launched, Guderian's 2nd Panzer Army had only in active duty 25% of its authorized vehicle strength, and some Panzergrenadieren regiments and motorized divisions were also seriously depleted in manpower. Hoepner's 4th Panzer Army and Reinhardt's (replacing Hoth) 3rd Panzer Army were in a somewhat better shape, but they both hovered around 50% of their authorized vehicle numbers in service. As for the state of their mobile infantry forces, the same stands as for Guderian's army.

It's true that the Soviets in front of AGC were in even worst shape (the result of their continuous attacks for almost two months), but the Soviets were receiving a continuous flow of replacements and putting new forces in the field, while the Germans were not. Time had been running against the Germans since June 22, but by October, it was running even quicker against them.

It's worth noticing again the poor performance of German intelligence. As usual, the Germans had good intelligence of the forces immediately in front of them, which allowed them to conduct the initial attack with such success. But any further than that, and they were in the most absolute darkness. The Mozhaisk line was a complete surprise, as were the forces that Zhukov scrambled together to cover it, and again it was another complete surprise when the Soviets pulled out even more fresh troops for their December counterattack.
 

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Perhaps, but in that stage of the war the Germans were not keen on such opportunistic moves. They wanted decisive, spectacular and radical solutions to Germany's fundamental strategic problem: Germany's isolation in a part of the Eurasian continent poor on the natural resources needed to carry on a protracted war against a world coalition.

Then there were other problems of a more practical nature. The month's pause of AGC after the battle of Smolensk did not lend itself to much rebuilding of its forces. Initially, AGC had to Panzergruppen (later renamed as Panzer Armies), nos. 3rd (Hoth's) in the north and 2nd (Guderian's) in the south. These two Panzergruppen, being the spearpoint of the German offensive, had seen constant fighting since June 22. They had conducted the encirclements at Minsk and Bialystok against the Soviet western front, and later (the first nasty surprise of the campaign for the Germans) another encirclement against the undetected forces of the Soviet second strategic echelon immediately west of Smolensk. At Smolensk, Panzerguppen 3 and 2 had to hold the encircled Soviet forces on their own until the 2nd, 4th and 9th Armies arrived (by means of constant forced marching) to relieve them partly of the task. And not only did they need to fight the Soviet forces trapped within the Smolensk pocket, because (in the second nasty surprise of the campaign for the Germans), the Soviets formed three more Fronts (Western, Bryansk and Reserve) east of Smolensk and hammered at the German armored ring from outside.

After these fights, the two Panzergruppen were exhausted, but even when Hitler decreed the general pause for AGC, these two Panzergruppen were not allowed any rest; Panzergruppe 3 had to execute a gruelling march north to join Leeb's vanguards approaching Leningrad (a march more than 400 km first north and then south to rejoin AGC, made on the vehicle's own tracks and wheels, through marshy and wooded terrain) and Guderian was redirected south and subordinated to Rundstedt's AGS, so he had to conduct yet another enciclement; with a fighting advance that took him 400 km south and then back.

Meanwhile, the Soviet Western, Bryansk and Reserve Fronts kept hammering at the German 2nd, 4th and 9th Armies with decreasing success, leaving them extremely weakened (the main reason for the staggering initial success of Typhoon) until the STAVKA called the attacks off.

When finally Halder managed to convince Hitler to launch the final attack on Moscow, AGC was only "relatively" rested and recovered. Most of September, the infantry had been repelling Soviet attacks, although in well entrenched positions and with relatively light losses. But the German logistical services had been unable to restore a proper supply line to AGC; whatever supplies arrived during these weeks were just enough to enable AGC to defend itself from the Soviet continued attacks, and so it was extremely difficult to build up even modest supply dumps behind German lines to support further advances.

But even worse was the situation of the (newly renamed) Panzer Armies, 2nd, 3rd and 4th (until then subordinated to Leeb's AGN, but now sent by Hitler and the OKH to reinforce AGC). The three Panzer Armies had seen constant combat since June 22, without any proper pause to repair damaged vehicles, and without receiving proper reinforcements.

This was a serious setback for the Germans, because the success of their tactics depended entirely on their mobile forces; as they'd been fighting non-stop since day one, and had no time to rest and had received no reinforcements, they were now seriously weakened.

By October 2, the day Typhoon was launched, Guderian's 2nd Panzer Army had only in active duty 25% of its authorized vehicle strength, and some Panzergrenadieren regiments and motorized divisions were also seriously depleted in manpower. Hoepner's 4th Panzer Army and Reinhardt's (replacing Hoth) 3rd Panzer Army were in a somewhat better shape, but they both hovered around 50% of their authorized vehicle numbers in service. As for the state of their mobile infantry forces, the same stands as for Guderian's army.

It's true that the Soviets in front of AGC were in even worst shape (the result of their continuous attacks for almost two months), but the Soviets were receiving a continuous flow of replacements and putting new forces in the field, while the Germans were not. Time had been running against the Germans since June 22, but by October, it was running even quicker against them.

It's worth noticing again the poor performance of German intelligence. As usual, the Germans had good intelligence of the forces immediately in front of them, which allowed them to conduct the initial attack with such success. But any further than that, and they were in the most absolute darkness. The Mozhaisk line was a complete surprise, as were the forces that Zhukov scrambled together to cover it, and again it was another complete surprise when the Soviets pulled out even more fresh troops for their December counterattack.

All of what you're saying about the weakness of AGC was as true during the September defence, as well as Typhoon and the success at Vyazma/Bryansk as it was during the painfull Russian counter-attacks. So I don't see what you're really arguing with it.

It seems to me that the September defence (somewhat entrenched/rested and able to handily repel and defensively obliterate Russian fronts) compared to the post-Typhoon defence (overstretched and exhausted and unable to repel Russian counter-attacks) suggests that only your first sentence is applicable: that, while probably the best idea, the Germans just weren't looking for that kind of solution.

It is possible that post-pockets rest would be insufficient to repel the December counterstrikes, but the odds of somewhat more entrenched and somewhat more rested/supplied troops succeeding seem higher. And IF they blunt or even repel the Russian counteroffensive, that puts Germany in a better position for '42.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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Yes. It forms the basis of several books laying a focus on the stratego-economics of mass industrialised warfare. Most specifically, it is the primary thesis of Tooze's Wages of destruction.

I still find it exacerbating that any student of ww2 (no matter how amateur) has not taking the tine to read this book yet.

Everyone has their pet book on the war, I have several I don't understand why people don't read; but that is more a measure of the plethora of tomes on the subject. Besides, what I am discussing is completely contrary to military thought and economic necessity and requires a different set of eyes.

I am not, and have never, discounted the value of the vast natural resources available in Russia; or underestimated Hitler's desire for the Caucus oilfields and the breadbasket of the Ukraine. For years, I assumed this was the overriding reason for crossing the border. It is the task handed the army.

Yet, on deeper inspection, that seems not to be the focus of the Nazi party; they have another task at hand that makes zero sense militarily or economically. This extra-curricular project is the one which is always prioritized even at the expense of military necessity. The mass forced slave labor involved makes sense economically from this perspective, the back half of this project simply does not. They were not interested in winning the war, they were interested in completing this project; and did so with ruthlessness and diabolic cunning. When they had done all they could do, their task successful, they left behind a few sacrificial lambs and are whisked away in large numbers to safety by Princes of the Roman Catholic Church to continue their good works in the Vatican's stronghold - South America - to keep it free of Communists. This is a spiritual exercise, not an economic one, Heydrich's RSHA being the Party's ATM machine notwithstanding.

I understand not wanting, or being able, to discuss this project in depth and leaving it in the broadest of terms per forum rules; but to my eyes it seems to be the primary motivation for the Inner Circle Nazis who cut the order to cross the border in the first place. And it is the events during and after the Siege of Moscow that bring this whole thing to a head.

If I had my way, you would convince me I am wrong; which is why I keep bringing it up. So far, my mind is unchanged.
 
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Andre Bolkonsky

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It's worth noticing again the poor performance of German intelligence.

It is very hard to fight a campaign when the pianists of the Rote Kappelle are playing their songs for Lucy to copy and pass on to Moscow. When the Russians have your operational orders, surprise is simply impossible. In March '42, GRU is handed the operational orders to Case Blue, which will not begin until May; yet chose not to take advance action on the intelligence until the German offensive actualy began. After that, they began to trust a bit more. .

Even harder when the Schwarze Kappelle is actively waiting to assassinate the Fuhrer.

A house divided . . . .
 

Easy-Kill

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If I had my way, you would convince me I am wrong; which is why I keep bringing it up. So far, my mind is unchanged.
Don't get me wrong, Tooze has its issues and it is not the most interesting read. I only chose to read it on the basis of the recommendation of @StephenT and @Zebedee.

It provides exactly the answer you are looking for and is contrary to the opinion you provided. He sets the basis for the conquest of Eastern/Soviet Europe as a necessity for building the industrial empire to match and defeat the Anglo-American empires. Hitler's focus had shifted from his early belief of destroying the eastern unter-mensch and was focussed on Roosevelt as the leader of the world Jewish conspiracy. In particul, the UK as a proxy for realising the military application of American economic might.

That is to say that in 1940, the Germans were well aware that Europe was industrially, economically and agriculturally isolated. The UK was buying more planes (with real money not LL) than the entire German industry was building. Germany's economic and civil planners knew that the status quo would only end her defeat. The invasion of the Soviet Union was the only real option.

I would thoroughly recommend his book. It's a great read!
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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Don't get me wrong, Tooze has its issues and it is not the most interesting read. I only chose to read it on the basis of the recommendation of @StephenT and @Zebedee.

It provides exactly the answer you are looking for and is contrary to the opinion you provided. He sets the basis for the conquest of Eastern/Soviet Europe as a necessity for building the industrial empire to match and defeat the Anglo-American empires. Hitler's focus had shifted from his early belief of destroying the eastern unter-mensch and was focussed on Roosevelt as the leader of the world Jewish conspiracy. In particul, the UK as a proxy for realising the military application of American economic might.

That is to say that in 1940, the Germans were well aware that Europe was industrially, economically and agriculturally isolated. The UK was buying more planes (with real money not LL) than the entire German industry was building. Germany's economic and civil planners knew that the status quo would only end her defeat. The invasion of the Soviet Union was the only real option.

I would thoroughly recommend his book. It's a great read!

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll look for it.

I understand the logic behind the argument, it makes perfect sense when you look through the German Armaments Ministry through Speer's eyes and the needs of the means of production that kept the army in the war. Taking Russia early is wargaming 101; I cannot count the number of games I've crossed into Russia as Germany for specifically this purpose.

However, Speer's opinion and economic considerations are irrelevant to what I'm discussing; which is why I'm saying you need another set of eyes to look at this thing.
 

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Yet, on deeper inspection, that seems not to be the focus of the Nazi party; they have another task at hand that makes zero sense militarily or economically. This extra-curricular project is the one which is always prioritized even at the expense of military necessity. The mass forced slave labor involved makes sense economically from this perspective, the back half of this project simply does not. They were not interested in winning the war, they were interested in completing this project; and did so with ruthlessness and diabolic cunning. When they had done all they could do, their task successful, they left behind a few sacrificial lambs and are whisked away in large numbers to safety by Princes of the Roman Catholic Church to continue their good works in the Vatican's stronghold - South America - to keep it free of Communists. This is a spiritual exercise, not an economic one, Heydrich's RSHA being the Party's ATM machine notwithstanding.

A, If you are going to invoke the Holocaust, invoke the Holocaust, don't dance around it. IIRC, it is not a forbidden topic in the history forum.
B, This would make sense, if only it wasnt until after the invasion of the USSR that the "Jewish question" was to be decided with extermination rather than expulsion.
C, This assumes that Nazi Germany was some sort of untied hierarchy, where everyone from the Furhrer down danced the same tune, which does not hold water even to the slightest of inquiries. The Reich was a mess of competing fiefdoms, and the RSHA was only one of those. To ascribe the aims of one subgroup to all of the Reich is a disservice to history
D, We get it, the pope is the devil and the catholic church is evil
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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This would make sense, if only it wasnt until after the invasion of the USSR that the "Jewish question" was to be decided with extermination rather than expulsion.

Not entirely. This is specifically why its brought up in this thread. It comes to a head during the Battle of Moscow. The Wannsee Conference, where this policy is instituted for the first time, occurs in January '42. Invitations went out in early October. The Germans crossed the border in late June. That's a very quick turn around. And it is the emphasis on the Final Solution over military necessity thereafter that keep it on the table.

This assumes that Nazi Germany was some sort of untied hierarchy, where everyone from the Furhrer down danced the same tune, which does not hold water even to the slightest of inquiries. The Reich was a mess of competing fiefdoms, and the RSHA was only one of those. To ascribe the aims of one subgroup to all of the Reich is a disservice to history

Well, yes and no.

Yes, the only people the Nazis hated more than outsiders were each other. There is a constantly shifting set of cliques vying for the Fuhrer's favor, and the Nazi's loved nothing more than throwing one another under the bus if it gained them a few rungs up the ladder. This is well documented. Besides, I've documented the primary resistance groups within the German Command throughout this entire conversation, and openly illustrated the divided house of German politics within the Reich as the primary reasons behind the Nazi collapse.

No, Plausible Deniability is still the cornerstone of this argument, and the Nazi's defense at Nuremburg. The Fuhrer gave verbal, not written, orders. Specific subgroups are used for precisely the purpose of confidentiality. A subset of the SS might, and were, given specific orders that are not applicable to any other part of the Reich. This is documented, as much as it can be, repeatedly thorughout the history of the Third Reich. And this would not the first time in history duplicity in the rationale behind a war was used.

So, given conflicting story lines, the key to understanding the problem is to look where the emphasis is placed, no?
 
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Easy-Kill

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Yep and thats where he belonged. He was without doubt well suited for a desk.

He was also not unique in the aspects that he promoted in his book. Fuller, Ledel-Hart and Hobart were all proponents of a single mechanised force. I don't doubt that similar advocates existed in the other nations as well. Guderian was fortunate in that he was able to test his thesis against under prepared and weaker opponents.
 

Easy-Kill

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The Fuhrer gave verbal, not written, orders.

Yet, one of the few orders that he did write down was about the economic necessity of invading the Soviet Union in order to secure the resources necessary for Germany to compete with the wealth of the English speaking nations (i.e. Roosevelt as the leader of the world Jewish conspiracy).

This thesis that Hitler and the Nazi leader's were mustache twirling villains who did things because they had issues forms out of the same theses which promote the likes of Guderian and Rommel as chivalrous military geniuses. It is formed out of the myth that the war was led by a few crazies who wanted to see the world burn simply because; rather than it being the cold calculation of necessity bought into by tens of millions of normal citizens. I will leave you with a quote from Tooze's introduction:

The originality of National Socialism was that rather than meekly accepting a place for Germany within a global economic order dominated by the affluent English speaking countries, Hitler sought to mobilise the pent-up frustrations of his population to mount an epic challenge to this order. Repeating what Europeans had done across the globe over the previous three centuries, Germany would carve out its own imperial hinterland; by one last great land grab in the East it would create the self-sufficient basis both for domestic affluence and the platform necessary to prevail in the coming superpower competition with the United States.... The aggression of Hitler’s regime can thus be rationalised as an intelligible response to the tensions stirred up by the uneven development of global capitalism, tensions that are of course still with us today.
 
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Andre Bolkonsky

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Yet, one of the few orders that he did write down was about the economic necessity of invading the Soviet Union in order to secure the resources necessary for Germany to compete with the wealth of the English speaking nations (i.e. Roosevelt as the leader of the world Jewish conspiracy).

This thesis that Hitler and the Nazi leader's were mustache twirling villains who did things because they had issues forms out of the same theses which promote the likes of Guderian and Rommel chivalrous military geniuses. It is formed out of the myth that the war was led by a few crazies who wanted to see the world burn simply because, rather than i being the cold calculation of necessity bought into by tens of millions of normal. I will leave you with a quote from Tooze's introduction:

You have added some hyperbole and some suspect imagery to introduce a long quote randomly cut from another article in order to reinforce a point I conceded at the beginning of the argument: ostensibly, on paper, the natural resources of the Soviet Union and Liebenstraum are the stated goals of the invasion with the side benefit of removing Bolshevism from the world stage.

This does not explain, and is totally contrary to, the reality that the ruling elite of the Reich prioritized the Shoah at the expense of every economic and military concern the argument from Tooze highlights.
 
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Easy-Kill

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You have added some hyperbole, some suspect imagery, and a couple of half completed thoughts to introduce a long quote you cut from another article reinforcing a point I conceded at the beginning of the argument: ostensibly, on paper, the natural resources of the Soviet Union and Liebenstraum are the stated goals of the invasion with the side benefit of removing Bolshevism from the world stage.
Why do you see this as an argument? That kind of implies that there is a disagreement of some kind? I always thought that this was supposed to be a discussion of facts with the aim of better understand information a topic, rather than being correct. Yes I am hyperboling your point because that is how it reads - all I can see is the point that Germany was not a coherent planned nation and that the murder of millions was the overreaching goal. If this is not the point you make, then perhaps re-stating your point could help ensure this doesn't devolve into an argument?

This does not in any way explain, and is totally contrary to, the reality that the ruling elite of the Reich prioritized the Shoah at the expense of every economic and military concern the argument from Tooze highlights.
Tooze has written several books trying to dispell the argument that death and destruction were the primary goal of the Reich. That quote was directly from his 'Wages of Destruction's introduction and appears to be one of the most commonly highlighted passages.
 

Yakman

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Yet, one of the few orders that he did write down was about the economic necessity of invading the Soviet Union in order to secure the resources necessary for Germany to compete with the wealth of the English speaking nations (i.e. Roosevelt as the leader of the world Jewish conspiracy).

This thesis that Hitler and the Nazi leader's were mustache twirling villains who did things because they had issues forms out of the same theses which promote the likes of Guderian and Rommel as chivalrous military geniuses. It is formed out of the myth that the war was led by a few crazies who wanted to see the world burn simply because; rather than it being the cold calculation of necessity bought into by tens of millions of normal citizens. I will leave you with a quote from Tooze's introduction:
no, this is not intelligible. and yes, hitler sounds like a mustachio-twirling villain.

Germany has ports. They can import stuff. They have railroads, they can import stuff.

There was no need to go and take stuff from the Soviets. NONE. The Soviets were happy to sell stuff to the Germans-they'd been doing it for years, and without their raw materials, the Germans wouldn't have been able to re-arm. So yeah, the notion that "We must invade another country and subjugate their people (and then kill all of them) so we minimize foreign exchange losses" is mustachio-twirling, Saturday morning cartoon bad guy stuff.

Hitler was no different from a Captain Planet villain.
 

bz249

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Yet, one of the few orders that he did write down was about the economic necessity of invading the Soviet Union in order to secure the resources necessary for Germany to compete with the wealth of the English speaking nations (i.e. Roosevelt as the leader of the world Jewish conspiracy).

This thesis that Hitler and the Nazi leader's were mustache twirling villains who did things because they had issues forms out of the same theses which promote the likes of Guderian and Rommel as chivalrous military geniuses. It is formed out of the myth that the war was led by a few crazies who wanted to see the world burn simply because; rather than it being the cold calculation of necessity bought into by tens of millions of normal citizens. I will leave you with a quote from Tooze's introduction:

Quite of few like Himmler were complete nuts. Bitte Hitler most probably was intelligent and rational, though his declining health meant that there was no room for long range plans. The thing have to be done before he dies.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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Quite of few like Himmler were complete nuts. Bitte Hitler most probably was intelligent and rational, though his declining health meant that there was no room for long range plans. The thing have to be done before he dies.

Himmler was nuts?

Hitler was intelligent and rational?

You sure that's how you want that to read?
 

Yakman

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Bitte Hitler most probably was intelligent and rational, though his declining health meant that there was no room for long range plans. The thing have to be done before he dies.
umm... the man was a raving lunatic. a megalomaniacal psychopath.