Was Lenin "evil"?

[frolix42]

Unfortunately, it fails to note that Communism lacks the safeguards to prevent exploitation by those enforcing it, and almost inevitably leads to a dictatorship or other authoritarian state. Communism relies either on peer pressure or a chosen authority to keep individuals from trying to cheat the system, and peer pressure only works in a small society where practically everyone is "familiar". Lenin did not bother to point out that the evolution of government is circular, and that Communism is not an "end state".

In that dodgy analogy in the previous post, the doctor is performing an operation which will "heal" the internal organ by means of a short-term fix, with the likely result that the organ will then fail completely after a short time. In that case, anything the doctor does that "advances" the situation from the status quo can be seen as "evil", particularly if the original injury is not life-threatening or will self-heal over time.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

[CruelDwarf]

That's right the Moscow show trials and the campaigns against the Kulaks were not hate filled murdered fests, but rational, impartial searches for truth and justice.

Do Congo Free State demonstrates that capitalism is inherently evil? I don't see a point really.

Where do you get "evil" from? I never said anything about evil.

It was literally in the quote.
There is nothing strange in that Marxism consider capitalism as a stepping stone towards communism. It is normal rule of societal progress. Prehistoric tribal commune was a stepping stone to a protostate which was a stepping stone to slave-based economies of the Ancient world in all its varienty which in turn provided the base for the arise of feudalism in Europe which gave birth to a capitalism. It is how progress works.

And capitalism will end in communsim rather inevitabely because productivity in relation with expenditure of human labor grows over time.

 

[Cavalry]

Unfortunately, it fails to note that Communism lacks the safeguards to prevent exploitation by those enforcing it, and almost inevitably leads to a dictatorship or other authoritarian state. Communism relies either on peer pressure or a chosen authority to keep individuals from trying to cheat the system, and peer pressure only works in a small society where practically everyone is "familiar". Lenin did not bother to point out that the evolution of government is circular, and that Communism is not an "end state"..

There was no Communism society yet. Lenin got a Worker's state. He promised Peace Land and Bread and he gave it. Later leaders gave (Free) Home, Job and Education instead. But still no Communism.

And I guess in movie the Alien use Communism. I see no rich alien and no poor alien!

 

[bz249]

There was no Communism society yet. Lenin got a Worker's state. He promised Peace Land and Bread and he gave it. Later leaders gave (Free) Home, Job and Education instead. But still no Communism.

And I guess in movie the Alien use Communism. I see no rich alien and no poor alien!

The Aliens are clearly in a caste state... now whether this meets they contribute according their capabilities and receive according their needs is an open question.

 

[pithorr]

There was no Communism society yet. Lenin got a Worker's state. He promised Peace Land and Bread and he gave it....

Really?
1. Peace changed into a nightmare of civil war much worse than the previous one, with genocide executions by Cheka...
2. Land was taken and immediately taken back. Kulaks finished like pos. 1.
3. Bread? The Russians had actually more bread before the revolution. And if you use it as a metaphor, just compare the level of consumption in capitalist and "communist" states in any period.

 

[Starred109]

Well, Karl Marx historically never had a job, other than talking about his glorious idea of communism, which never came into a country until late WW1.

 

[Herbert West]

It's quite funny how noone seems to mention the actual, day-to-day propaganda of the USSR itself, which was basically "we have to have a dictatorship now, but we will reach socialism at the end of this struggle"

Both the outward and the inward communication of the Communist Party actively clamoured for a dictatorship, inwardly because they wished to skip the "developed industrial nation with trade unions and capitalists" stage of Marxist dialectic evolution. Had they eyes to see, they would correctly deduce that the reason those states dont turn sociallist-in-the-communist-sense is because they turn into social democracies.


(socialism meant in the sense that communists used it, aka a fully egalitarian society without any wages paid in money, before someone jumps down my throat)

 

[Sabotage13]

Well, Karl Marx historically never had a job, other than talking about his glorious idea of communism, which never came into a country until late WW1.

He was working as a librarian when he lived in England, and when he was still in Germany he ran his own newspaper (and shafted his employees on payment, like any entrepreneur).

 

[Adamgerd]

I still do not understand how Lenin 'destroyed' any democracy. Firstly, there was no democracy in Russia in 1917-18 in anything but name. Secondly, the most democratic element that existed in Russia at that time - Soviets - were actually retained and kept existing in the Soviet Union.

I find it strange that Western tradition equates 'democracy' with 'multi-party system'. One can exist without the other. There could be a multi-party system without democracy and democracy without multi-party system.

Really, you can have a single-party democracy? No, because then you don't have the choice to choose a party

 

[Adamgerd]

There is nothing 'evil' in the communist/socialist system. It is no more evil than capitalism and most likely less.

How is the communist system less evil than capitalism? What about the whole purges or famine?

 

[Adamgerd]

He was working as a librarian when he lived in England, and when he was still in Germany he ran his own newspaper (and shafted his employees on payment, like any entrepreneur).

Karl Marx, who created the communist ideology and influenced Stalin, Mao, Lenin was an entrepeuner? Source?

 

[Cavalry]

Karl Marx, who created the communist ideology and influenced Stalin, Mao, Lenin was an entrepeuner? Source?

I don't know much about him but I know he was a rich man. At that time if you are not a rich man you cannot be a philosopher because you will need to work 16 hours a day just for something to eat!

 

[Adamgerd]

I don't know much about him but I know he was a rich man. At that time if you are not a rich man you cannot be a philosopher because you will need to work 16 hours a day just for something to eat!

He was rich and yet the inventor of communism?

 

[Cavalry]

He was rich and yet the inventor of communism?

Yes, but from his view he didn't invent but discover or predict an already exist science fact or rule. And as I know he didn't do anything to make it happen (?). He was just scientifically curiosity!

Remember most of communism realities was pioneered and applied by communist leaders like Lenin, Stalin, Mao,...

 

[Adamgerd]

Yes, but from his view he didn't invent but discover or predict a science fact or rule. And as I know he didn't do anything to make it happen (?). He was just scientifically curiosity!

Good prediction. Except his prediction is wrong. The USSR collapsed, yet the US didn't. I bet he would find that interesting

 

[Semper Victor]

Well, Karl Marx historically never had a job, other than talking about his glorious idea of communism, which never came into a country until late WW1.

That he never had a job? Among other jobs (as already noted above), he was a well known journalist. For example, between 1852 and 1861 he worked as correspondant in Europe for the New York Tribune and wrote for it all these articles.

 

[Cavalry]

Good prediction. Except his prediction is wrong. The USSR collapsed, yet the US didn't. I bet he would find that interesting

Well China is going to be bigger even than USSR!

 

[Adamgerd]

Well China is going to be bigger even than USSR!

Tell me when it's more powerful than the US and don't give me that it owns the US economy, because one thing it misses is overall NATO owns more of China, than china owns of US. Also it's not the most communist, it reformed slightly. Now North Korea is a better modern day example and in all things, it's inferior to the US

 

[wingo]

China is communist only in politics, it`s economy is very capitalist, much more than any EU country.
North Korea is ... a special place. Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither Democratic, or People`s, or Republic, nor it is whole of Korea, and it is definitely not communist despite all claims

 

[bz249]

China is communist only in politics, it`s economy is very capitalist, much more than any EU country.
North Korea is ... a special place. Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither Democratic, or People`s, or Republic, nor it is whole of Korea, and it is definitely not communist despite all claims

It is as capitalist as the Frankish Empire... what China (or even South Korea) doing is not really capitalism on the sense it was meant to be. Quite a lot of the economic freedoms are curtailed there. They are greedy, but that alone does not make someone capitalist.