Was Lenin "evil"?

[Semper Victor]

It is as capitalist as the Frankish Empire... what China (or even South Korea) doing is not really capitalism on the sense it was meant to be. Quite a lot of the economic freedoms are curtailed there. They are greedy, but that alone does not make someone capitalist.

As intended by whom? I was not aware that somebody had "designed" how "proper capitalism" should be.

 

[Caspoi]

China is communist only in politics, it`s economy is very capitalist, much more than any EU country.
North Korea is ... a special place. Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither Democratic, or People`s, or Republic, nor it is whole of Korea, and it is definitely not communist despite all claims

These days they don't even claim to be communist, they have removed all mentions of Marxism-Leninism from the constitution and the party, in fact considering how much importance the Juche ideology places on the Korean people and their "innocence" and how they are superior to all others I would say that it has turned into more of a fascist-esque ideology.

 

[bz249]

As intended by whom? I was not aware that somebody had "designed" how "proper capitalism" should be.

Yes capitalism has no clear definition (so indeed anything can be thrown into the basket), but does e.g. China looks like a market economy?

 

[Semper Victor]

Yes capitalism has no clear definition (so indeed anything can be thrown into the basket), but does e.g. China looks like a market economy?

If it allows private ownership of capital (real estate, factories or other businesses, or financial capital), allows private trading of said capital and of all kinds of commodities and allows the accumulation of wealth (and capital) in a free and unmolested way, then yes, it is a market economy. I don't see how you can even question it. The state intervenes in certain economic sectors, enacts tariffs, etc., but that has been done across centuries by all (literally all) capitalist / free market countries. Even today the USA does so.

Or do companies like Huawei, Alibaba, Suntech or Lenovo not look "capitalist" enough for you?

 

[pithorr]

I don't know much about him but I know he was a rich man. At that time if you are not a rich man you cannot be a philosopher because you will need to work 16 hours a day just for something to eat!

Marx was rather poor. In London he was kept by Engels, who actually was a rich guy.

 

[Arilou]

Marx was rather poor. In London he was kept by Engels, who actually was a rich guy.

To the extent that Marx at one point apparently pawned his pants because he didn't have any money.

 

[Sabotage13]

Karl Marx, who created the communist ideology and influenced Stalin, Mao, Lenin was an entrepeuner? Source?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neue_Rheinische_Zeitung

 

[Adamgerd]

China is communist only in politics, it`s economy is very capitalist, much more than any EU country.

Does it have flat taxes with only a 7% maximum increase if you're salary is 48x average salary? If no, then it is less capitalist than the Czech Republic.

North Korea is ... a special place. Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither Democratic, or People`s, or Republic, nor it is whole of Korea, and it is definitely not communist despite all claims

Not communist? Despite it's claims of being Juche, it is a marxist-leninist dictatorship.

 

[Adamgerd]

These days they don't even claim to be communist, they have removed all mentions of Marxism-Leninism from the constitution and the party, in fact considering how much importance the Juche ideology places on the Korean people and their "innocence" and how they are superior to all others I would say that it has turned into more of a fascist-esque ideology.

No, they changed it due to the fall of the USSR, and don't they still talk of a liberation of the proletariat? They're a communist dictatorship not a fascist. The difference is communist dictatorships lie about what they are, unlike fascist ones

 

[Geriander]

Does it have flat taxes with only a 7% maximum increase if you're salary is 48x average salary? If no, then it is less capitalist than the Czech.

China has a total tax burden as a percentage of GDP of 28%. The Czech Republic is at 36%, slightly higher than the average in the EU.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

Oh man. It's been awhile since I stumbled into an OT thread. You guys started on the ethics and morality of Lenin and have arrived at average national tax burdens.. You need a forensic examiner to determine where the thread last left off talking about Lenin.

Edit: oh, this isn't even an OT sub-forum

 

[olm]

China nowadays seems to fit most characteristics of a fascist state.

 

[Caspoi]

China nowadays seems to fit most characteristics of a fascist state.

Well, I wouldn't go so far, while authoritarian I don't think that China would qualify as totalitarian, nor ultranationalistic. Admittedly I am not too well versed in modern day China.

 

[pithorr]

China has a total tax burden as a percentage of GDP of 28%. The Czech Republic is at 36%, slightly higher than the average in the EU.

China also doesn't have any welfare nor public healthcare system...

 

[Geriander]

China also doesn't have any welfare nor public healthcare system...

At the same time it tends to rank quite poorly on the economic freedoms index so I wouldn't consider it very capitalistic either.

 

[wingo]

China also doesn't have any welfare nor public healthcare system...

Which were the pillars of communism in eastern Europe together with education. So looks like pretty much the only thing it has in common with eastern european communism is the name of the leading (and only allowed) party...

 

[olm]

Well, I wouldn't go so far, while authoritarian I don't think that China would qualify as totalitarian, nor ultranationalistic. Admittedly I am not too well versed in modern day China.

Obviously they are not at Nazi German levels of crazy, but comparison with South-European fascist regimes doesn't seem too far off. Authoritarian government with single ruling party, suppression of political opposition, aiming to restrict access to foreign information, nationalism, territorial expansionism (South-China sea), strong state control of economy but also ruthless capitalism with minimal worker rights etc. Now obviously they aren't exact replica of some other fascist regime, but fascist regimes weren't carbon copies of each other anyway, all of them (Italy, Spain, Portugal, Slovakia, Greece, Japan, Vichy Fr. etc.) had their own national quirks.

 

[Adamgerd]

China has a total tax burden as a percentage of GDP of 28%. The Czech Republic is at 36%, slightly higher than the average in the EU.

What do you mean by tax burden? Because if it's the average tax rate, that's 20% and as of 2013, once you have over 48x average salary, it increases to 27%, so it can't be that

 

[Geriander]

What do you mean by tax burden? Because if it's the average tax rate, that's 20% and as of 2013, once you have over 48x average salary, it increases to 27%, so it can't be that

Its the ratio of total tax revenue collected by the government to the gross domestic product of the nation. Here is a list:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio

If taxation is how you judge the capitalism/socialism of a country, I think its best to include all forms rather than only income tax. The economic freedom index includes a lot more factors than taxation though and lists the Czech Republic as more free than China althogh far from the top.

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

 

[Henry IX]

Obviously they are not at Nazi German levels of crazy, but comparison with South-European fascist regimes doesn't seem too far off. Authoritarian government with single ruling party, suppression of political opposition, aiming to restrict access to foreign information, nationalism, territorial expansionism (South-China sea), strong state control of economy but also ruthless capitalism with minimal worker rights etc. Now obviously they aren't exact replica of some other fascist regime, but fascist regimes weren't carbon copies of each other anyway, all of them (Italy, Spain, Portugal, Slovakia, Greece, Japan, Vichy Fr. etc.) had their own national quirks.

I would say it lacks the underlying ideology of nationhood that is the key distinguishing factor between facist and simple authoritarian. I would tend to define China as an authoritarian state with crony capitalism mixed with some elements of a planned economy. You could argue that this also describes Franco's Spain, for example, but I think there is an ideological element as to why a Facist state is run the way it is, which China lacks.