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parkerg12

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One thing people also have to consider is Italy while only at 2.5 % was producing weapons for a long time. The allies really didn't get started till 1939/40. AKA 4 years @2.5 is 10%. Meaning the Italian could have had a Fairly decent force in 1940 compared to the allies, because it had time. But so much of it was wasted due to Foolish decisions by il Duce. There is a really interesting article about an invasion plan into Ethiopia that was focused on very small elite forces. These forces where to focus on taking only what they can control and gain resources from. Then forcing a peace / puppet state. I think if that plan/doctrine was embraced and the overall Italian army Shrunk to what it would be able to logistically support north africa would have been a different story. Heck Italy could have also had a much more successful campaign into greece. this would have relieved Germany the burden of supporting north africa and greece allowing it to send more troops east. But to do so would have required competent leadership and any competent leadership would have kept italy out of the larger war.
 
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Bki

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One thing people also have to consider is Italy while only at 2.5 % was producing weapons for a long time. The allies really didn't get started till 1939/40. AKA 4 years @2.5 is 10%. Meaning the Italian could have had a Fairly decent force in 1940 compared to the allies, because it had time.

I don't know for the UK, but France started rearming as soon as 1936. And overall during the battle of France the Allied had more of everything except aircraft than Germany had, and fielded about 1.5x more men than the Italian did in the entire war.

It of course depends on what you consider "a Fairly decent force", but I fear that no matter what military buildup Italy did, their only move for WW2 was not to play.
 

Caeric

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Thanks for updating me on that! My knowledge of italian aircraft is quite limited. My knowledge before this was that they were flying aircraft with inferior engines and even biplanes.
And they never had actually significant numbers of those fighters in production...

Absolutely, Italy was let down by its horrendously bad industry as usual. Although when it came to designing things they were quite decent, when it comes to tanks keep in mind due to their industry it took them 2-3 years to produce a new tank according to the spec requirement they received at that time so whatever they asked for ended up being obsolete before it was even introduced in numbers. But other than lacking numbers, Italian ship and aircraft design was relatively good, although relying on Germany to provide licenced engines due to lack of modern indigenous designs.
 

Fediuld76

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@Giob @Robb92 you disagree on existing history guys like it didn't happen as wrote it? Prove me wrong.
 

Giob

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@Giob @Robb92 you disagree on existing history guys like it didn't happen as wrote it? Prove me wrong.
You made a bunch of unsubstantiated claims, yet ask other people to prove you wrong, typical.
Also:

> "The Spring attack of 1941 broke completely what ever was left from it's elite divisions, especially the mountain ones."
Italian armoured forces were operative in North Africa up until 1942.
Bersaglieri were still operative in Africa in 1942, where Rommel dedicated a plaque in their honor for extraordinary performance on the battlefield, and later on the Italian mainland.
Italian Paratroopers operated up until El Alamein, in late 1942 (although technically there were other formations like them up until the end of the war, I wouldn't put them on the same level of "eliteness").
An entire Alpini army corps was deployed in the USSR until the first months of 1943.
This is without counting the other elite units which didn't operate on large scale which remained effective until the end of WW2, like the XMAS.

So no, the elite forces were not "broken completely" it the Spring offensive, considering they were still in activity up to a year and a half after the Greek campaign, literally deployed in other continents.
 
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Fediuld76

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You made a bunch of unsubstantiated claims, yet ask other people to prove you wrong, typical.
Also:

> "The Spring attack of 1941 broke completely what ever was left from it's elite divisions, especially the mountain ones."
Italian armoured forces were operative in North Africa up until 1942.
Bersaglieri were still operative in Africa in 1942, where Rommel dedicated a plaque in their honor for extraordinary performance on the battlefield, and later on the Italian mainland.
Italian Paratroopers operated up until El Alamein, in late 1942 (although technically there were other formations like them up until the end of the war, I wouldn't put them on the same level of "eliteness").
An entire Alpini army corps was deployed in the USSR until the first months of 1943.
This is without counting the other elite units which didn't operate on large scale which remained effective until the end of WW2, like the XMAS.

So no, the elite forces were not "broken completely" it the Spring offensive, considering they were still in activity up to a year and a half after the Greek campaign, literally deployed in other continents.

You are telling me the 5 Alpini divisions used against Greece, including Julia (3rd) and Tridentina (2nd) were not elite units?
Also Tridentina, Julia and Cuneense sent to USSR in 1942 not earlier, let alone 1940 which were fighting Greece and there was no war with USSR....

Especially those two (Julia & Tridentina) were supposed to be the best Mountain units the Italian infantry could field and both were superior to the German Mountain Divs of that period also. These fought alongside several Infantry divisions like 47th, 29th, 19th, 51st, 53rd and others.

You imply that Italy didn't use armoured divisions, even if parts from Centauro Div were present but I say this is irrelevant. And so are the paratrooper, because both Tanks & Paratroopers were useless due to geography of the theater and clear suicide if paratroopers dropped at 2000m mountain ridge. (see what happened to the German paratroopers in Crete who fell on hilly terrain).

The point is that Italy both outgunned (in numbers and technology), had air superiority, outclassed (Alpini divisions) and outnumbered the Greek army who was fighting with WWI and Balkan wars hardware, barely any airplanes (few PZL from WWI) and all the units consisted of people doing national service and draftees.

And the Italian failure came to the surprise of everyone including the Greek Army command who caught off guard having written off from their plans to hold Epirus and especially the British who had written off the country without providing any help until 5 months later.
 
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Giob

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Your post has no point. You said that the Spring offensive "broke the Italian elite units", and I proved you wrong showing they were more than operative for YEARS after that, even distinguishing themselves against much bigger foes. According to Wikipedia, Italian losses amounted to barely 12k during the offensive, so basically nothing.
You imply that Italy didn't use armoured divisions
No I didn't. Reread what I wrote, twice if possible. I said that they were still active after the campaign, because again, they didn't suffer the terrible losses you describe. The Greek campaign didn't put a dent into Italy's ability to wage war, let alone cause any significant damage to its elite units since, as I proved already, tons of elite divisions and formations continued to operate and went as far as receiving massive praise from both allies and enemies, showing that they hadn't lost any of their "eliteness" despite their replacements.
The point is that Italy both outgunned (in numbers and technology), had air superiority, outclassed (Alpini divisions) and outnumbered the Greek army who was fighting with WWI and Balkan wars hardware, barely any airplanes (few PZL from WWI) and all the units consisted of people doing national service and draftees.

And the Italian failure came to the surprise of everyone including the Greek Army command who caught off guard having written off from their plans to hold Epirus and especially the British who had written off the country without providing any help until 5 months later.
And here's the pointless word salad characteristic of any Italo-Greek war discussion. If you want to discuss how "heroic" the Greeks were there's a handy little thread in OT about that already. This doesn't add anything to the discussion, considering it's not showing what made Italy incapable of achieving success but simply repeating ad nauseam (often exaggerated) failures.
 
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Vlad123

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Italy is many times stronger in the game than it was IRL. The AI's incompetence is probably skewing your image of what the country can do in HoI4.
Incompetance of IA? Only at my game Italy arrive to suez, land Malta,conquer Gibilterra and (few time) landing to UK and make them capitulate!?
PS if balbo not die, in Africa can end in different mode (Balbo are like Rommel, and only compass make stronger the few british troops)
 
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Fulmen

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Incompetance of IA? Only at my game Italy arrive to suez, land Malta,conquer Gibilterra and (few time) landing to UK and make them capitulate!?

What you Sir are witnessing here is the incompetence of the British AI. Roll the dice again.

PS if balbo not die, in Africa can end in different mode (Balbo are like Rommel, and only compass make stronger the few british troops)

No.
 
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Vlad123

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Balbo are very similar to Rommel for competence, they want move soon and i think prevent compass, they love the German Blitzkrieg and have visited germany,USA,UK...i think they was studied a lot the German blitzkrieg (if they love, they have studied it,asked to german general...etc) of course i think balbo have used few units, but better and remain like "garrison".
On Hoi4: This appear every game -.-
 

Hoi Neuling

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If everything workes well then, it´s unimportend what Focuses you have. The Main-Thing is, that a spliting Nation like France (in 2 Parts) working correctly. And it´s doing now with Free France and Vichy-France. So there is no problem with it.

Maybe we will get some improvements with Patch 1.10 "Collie", but a big Change to a not working Vichy-France / Free France we don´t need anymore.