It's so pathetic in the game that one thinks it was intentionally weaken for the game?
Was Italy that weak in RL?
- Thread starter Mentatt76
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You are maybe unlucky. I was saved multiple times (as Czechoslovakia or Germany) or destroyed (as France) by Italy in the game 
Italy is probably unhistorically strong in the game. If there is a nation that has been intentionally kneecapped for the sake of the game, it's France, because the reasons for its defeat are either not represented in the game, or are not significant enough.
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Fix the idiotic garrisoning of Ethiopia and then the picture will become clearer.
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Italy had potential, but I feel it was wasted by leaders who did not understand, one, that WW1 was over, and two, what that meant. For example, they had far less trucks than they needed and made very little effort to understand and meet the logistical needs of their deployed armies. If I remember right, during the entire war they made no improvements to their ports in Africa. Despite their ambitions in the theater, the port capacity to unload cargo did not increase to anywhere close to what was needed to realize them. That did not stop them from dropping off hundreds of thousands of troops in the desert and tell them to walk.
There are almost as many what-ifs with Italy as with Germany.
There are almost as many what-ifs with Italy as with Germany.
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One of the strangest claims that I just cant seem to verify is italy apparently had a surprising capacity to produce aircraft. Of course germany refused to license the 109 or the 190 and italy didn't have the best air designs. That would be a surprising and unexpected advantage for Italy crippled by one little tidbit easily remedied in game. But as I said, I can't verify that...
Anyway 100% agreement with you. Instead of focusing on a small elite army italy fielded as many men as it possibly could, like 2.5 million men. More men than it could arm adequately, more men than it could supply.
The north african campaign you bring up is the part that shows its failures in full view. The italian leadership had come up with a maneuver warfare doctrine in Ethiopia but instead of using a smaller elite force to solve the problem they massed morons in the desert with garbage equipment. They had more tanks but they went with massed crappy infantry that were basically helpless in the desert once they marched out and overburdened the limited supply capacity.
Italy isn't a "glorified minor" as some have derided it. It simply was crippled by moronic leaders who compounded its inbuilt problems.
In game I like Italy bc its not too strong, doesn't have too many people and if you pay attention in game just as in the real war it can teach a few lessons. Like, fewer men with better equipment and better supplied is superior. In game we see how 36 infantry equipment is literally twice as good as 1918. 39 infantry gear is 50% better still.
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There was even a discussion about Italy being too strong in the game recently...
Italy was an unstable country
...but in hoi4 it is a human meatgrinder ready to throw a handful of millions to the enemy. The country was almost already bankrupted when it entered war due to the efforts in conquering ethiopia and the spanish civil war, the army was obsolete...
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Italy is many times stronger in the game than it was IRL. The AI's incompetence is probably skewing your image of what the country can do in HoI4.
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This. (numbers below from 1937)
The game designers overpowered the Axis so they'd have a fifty-fifty shot at defeating the Allies and Comintern simultaneously, and depowered France so they're usually little more than a speed-bump.
Ingame, Italy starts with more than double the military factories of France, and more than the UK, which is ridiculous, historically speaking. They also have no army penalties unlike France, Britain or China, while their army performed - on the whole - extremely badly in the war.
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The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers by Paul Kennedy and World War II: A Statistical Survey by John Ellis, compiled by Jon Parshall, the author of Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway.
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Italy hasn't really been worked on so it's not in a great state. And in real life they were like a 2nd rate regional power pretending to be a major first rate power. I think the Italian military told Mussolini that they needed years of re-armament before they would be ready for war. Same thing the German military told Hitler. But crazy dictators don't listen to anyone.
In the game Italy attacks southern France in the Alps and can lose hundreds of thousands of troops there. Whereas in real life, they only attacked when the French lines were broken and the Battle of France was nearly over so they could get a participation trophy and get some spoils. They got a little bit of French territory. But AI Italy puts way too many troops into southern France and attacks too early.
Italy needs bicycles. They need Cruiser submarines. They need historical Operations to model their excellent frogmen special forces. Destroyed a lot of British ships that way. The Italian Civil War needs to be modeled. The extensive German defensive lines in Italy need to be modeled.
In the game Italy attacks southern France in the Alps and can lose hundreds of thousands of troops there. Whereas in real life, they only attacked when the French lines were broken and the Battle of France was nearly over so they could get a participation trophy and get some spoils. They got a little bit of French territory. But AI Italy puts way too many troops into southern France and attacks too early.
Italy needs bicycles. They need Cruiser submarines. They need historical Operations to model their excellent frogmen special forces. Destroyed a lot of British ships that way. The Italian Civil War needs to be modeled. The extensive German defensive lines in Italy need to be modeled.
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Italy in game can easily become Germany no. 2 which is just impossible in real life.
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People have a skewed sense of WW2 because so many people died and Hitler conquered so much of Europe.
In reality that was such a stroke of luck and taking advantage of circumstances and the other parties not being prepared. Basically once round 1 ended the Allies stomped all over the axis powers.
Italy was never a threat to any major power.UK had to gets its bearings but once they did Italy had no chance and needed the Germans to bail them out.
it wasn’t their fault as soldiers though. There is lots of evidence that their soldiers performed well under Rommel with competent command and good supplies. But without the Germans they had bad leadership, poor supplies and importantly, this was not a war that Italians were excited about.
In reality that was such a stroke of luck and taking advantage of circumstances and the other parties not being prepared. Basically once round 1 ended the Allies stomped all over the axis powers.
Italy was never a threat to any major power.UK had to gets its bearings but once they did Italy had no chance and needed the Germans to bail them out.
it wasn’t their fault as soldiers though. There is lots of evidence that their soldiers performed well under Rommel with competent command and good supplies. But without the Germans they had bad leadership, poor supplies and importantly, this was not a war that Italians were excited about.
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Italy in HoI4 is stronger than it was in real life.
Mostly though, this is a good thing for gameplay, cause nerfing Italy further would only serve as a detriment to the experience of playing against it, especially after Germany has taken a swing with the nerf bat and can no longer prop them up as readily, at least when done by the AI.
Mostly though, this is a good thing for gameplay, cause nerfing Italy further would only serve as a detriment to the experience of playing against it, especially after Germany has taken a swing with the nerf bat and can no longer prop them up as readily, at least when done by the AI.
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Italy sent a 3-division mobile army to Russia in 1941 that did well until operation uranus KO'd the romanians on either side of its position and cut off its supplies.. As with many things early-war Axis, supply seems to be the limiting factor rather than individual spirit/training or unit-commander tactical skill.
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Italy was indeed weak. Mussolini to boost the number of division reduce the size of division, so the total number is skewed. Italy has a descent navy but the British was breaking codes, so there was never any surprises. Italian A/c was not as bad as someone alluded to either. the MC 200, 202, and 205 while armaments was underwhelming was a surprisingly tough adversary. Very maneuverable. In fact, II,/JG 77 actually flew the Mc 205 for a short time.
On a side note, I am not a big fan of the new look forward (it has been awhile since I have been on the forum). The Avatars are now dwarfed by all of the postbit information. Looks weird. The color is more pleasing. though
On a side note, I am not a big fan of the new look forward (it has been awhile since I have been on the forum). The Avatars are now dwarfed by all of the postbit information. Looks weird. The color is more pleasing. though
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It's far more complicated. For one, Italy did license BF109 engine for its designs. It didn't need to license BF109 itself, because it's designs were actually better, which isn't a huge shock, considering BF109 was like 5-7 years old at that point, and was in production chiefly due to it's low cost, and a Germany failing to create a replacement fighter model with inline engine (Eventually, FW190D and TA-152)
Similarly, Japan did license BF109 engine, but made their own aircraft around it.
Italy just failed with logistics everywhere, which I would assume had mostly to do with internal politics in armed forces, and probably money and experience of previous was, where everyone was sitting next to a railroad for years.
In Greece, Italian army was out-mobilised by Greeks and had a rough time facing numerically supervisor forces, from national it was invading. One would assume they should have prepared better.
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It is my understanding that the Italian generals stated it would take months to prepare for a war against Greece, but Mussolini gave them weeks. I am not sure it would had mattered; Italian plans lacked imagination and would had most likely failed anyway.
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