Was Danzig for Slovakia realistic?

[Zeprion]

Before World War II starts I always have a feeling of "look how big Germany is now, it should have stopped there, but the government that made these territorial expansions possible was also a government bent on war, so it was impossible".

Assuming that this wasn't impossible and the Nazi party changed their mind, wanted to preserve the expanded Germany, arguing that they have already recovered their dignity lost in the humiliating peace of World World I.

Was it possible to just stop there without the Allies trying to pressure Germany to give back Austria and Czechoslovakia?

And even more interesting, was it possible for Poland to accept a "Danzig for Slovakia" with a German guarantee of independence under the pretext that "a country for Germans and a country for Slavs" ?

My guess is no, given Hitler's former adventures in Austria and Czechoslovakia everyone assumed that after Danzing, Poland will fall next.

 

[Dlin369]

My guess is it'd be unlikely in real life, though I like the option existing in HOI4 in case the Soviets go aggressive and/or the French or British turn ideologies. That way Germany has a chance to scoop up more allies instead of being ganged up

 

[--Yigito123--]

I don't think Poland would ever have accepted losing it's entire coastline in exchange for just Slovakia and a guarantee of independence (Essentially making them dependent on the Germans economically), unless some compensation for that was also negotiated.

 

[him_15]

If Poland knew that both France and UK would abandon them, she might have ceased Danzig to Germany.

 

[lonewolf371]

If Poland knew that both France and UK would abandon them, she might have ceased Danzig to Germany.

Germany was going to declare war anyway. They had already divided Poland with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

 

[kettyo]

Germany was going to declare war anyway. They had already divided Poland with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Certainly. Even if Germany was hesitant because of the unexpected knuckle under of Poland, the Soviets had attacked from the East seeing that the Allies are backing off.

 

[kettyo]

Was it possible to just stop there without the Allies trying to pressure Germany to give back Austria and Czechoslovakia?

After the Munich Agreement certainly yes. After betraying that half a year later by dividing the rest of Czechoslovakia, not so much.

 

[mursolini]

Germany was going to declare war anyway. They had already divided Poland with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Molotov Ribentrop was signed on 23th of August 1939, days before invasion. Before that, German options were in the air.

 

[BloodAsp]

Czechoslovakia was always point of conflict, as Germany simply annexed that country.

Regarding Danzing for Slovakia:
If you look at the map you will see that issue was way more complicated, as Danzing (now Gdańsk) was Free City - supposedly independent entity. Most of "Danzing" from HOI is actually the so called Polish Corridor. Poland in Versailles was supposed to get access to the sea and port (historical Polish lands - Pomorze Gdańskie), but due to the fact that large majority of Danzing citizens were German France and UK decided on Free City approach.
The problem is that city's economic life was depended on cooperation with Poland, yet due to city anty polish stance Poland ended up building another port (Gdynia) very close by.
Not going too much into details of Polish-German relations in 20s: it was a mess, and Germany constantly "maneuvered" to get corridor back.
After Hitler came to power Polish-German relations became much more calm (seriously): Hitler had different targets, and even after he absorbed Czechoslovakia, he only (ostensibly) had 2 demands:
1. For Poland to consent to Danzing being annexed to Reich (idiotic, but looks good on the map).
2. For Poland to agree to extraterritorial highway through corridor - that was actually Polish idea from 20s
Both demands weren't really that bad, but that was really a smokescreen: Hitler pressured Poland to join Anticomintern pact. How was he supposed to wage war on USSR to get Lebensraum (basically colonies, but on Ukraine) without land connection? Polish politicians wanted to balance USSR and Germany influence, and being waaay closer to USSR understood that Hitler's ideas on Ukraine colonization are wrong (once again not going into too many details: Ukrainians were not some stone age people, they had their own national aspirations). Besides believing Hitler now, caving into his demands could bring the risk of further demands later on:
That guy just broke agreement with Western Powers, and took whole Czechoslovakia, tomorrow he can demand whole corridor, Poznań, Upper Silesia, even Galizia.

Funnily enough Hitler wanted to feed parts of Slovakia to Poland, but Poles refused and suggested it should be transferred to Hungary (so both countries would have common border)

 

[DicRoNero]

Hitler had different targets, and even after he absorbed Czechoslovakia, he only (ostensibly) had 2 demands:
1. For Poland to consent to Danzing being annexed to Reich (idiotic, but looks good on the map).

If both my sources and memory are still reliable, he didn't really demand Danzig per se; rather, he asked for a democratic (!) act to be held there, such as a plebescite to allow people to decide for themselves. Like it had been in Saar a few years before (1935 IIRC).

What's so idiotic about either this or what're saying, by the way? In the XX century well after the WW2 certain countries used similar pretext to declare war and annex land outright (see India invading Portuguese Goa). So I genuinely wonder.

That guy just broke agreement with Western Powers, and took whole Czechoslovakia, tomorrow he can demand (...), Upper Silesia.

You mean demand back? It's not like Upper Silesia joined Poland peacefully and on its own.

edit: grammar

 

[BloodAsp]

Danzing was a port for lands which were south of it, there was rail and road connection, and that was the reason for city existence. So annexing it into East Prussia would probably rob city of business.

Regarding Upper Silesia: that's rather contentious topic. Depending on the sources it was either will of the population - which staged 2 "armed protests" demanding plebiscite, and then one more after said plebiscite was "manipulated".
Or unlawful coup d'état by armed minority which lost the popular vote.
Again issue is complicated, as Upper Silesia was de facto divided more or less along ethnic lines.

 

[DicRoNero]

Danzing was a port for lands which were south of it, there was rail and road connection, and that was the reason for city existence. So annexing it into East Prussia would probably rob city of business.

That sounds like a reasonable argument, but so-called democratic principles [of self-determination] never take those into account. I.e. Austro-Hungary was dismembered in the most ugly way, robbing Austria of both industry and agriculture, and on top of that prohibiting the country from joining Germany to ensure its own miserable condition will have a lasting effect.

 

[him_15]

If Poland knew that both France and UK would abandon them, she might have ceased Danzig to Germany.

 

[lonewolf371]

Molotov Ribentrop was signed on 23th of August 1939, days before invasion. Before that, German options were in the air.

True, Poland might have been able to ally themselves with Germany before the Germans reached out to the Russians, although even then I'm skeptical. Against the UK and France the Poles were not valuable allies, not nearly as valuable as the USSR was from 1939-1941 or Japan might have been.

 

[Alpha2518]

That sounds like a reasonable argument, but so-called democratic principles [of self-determination] never take those into account. I.e. Austro-Hungary was dismembered in the most ugly way, robbing Austria of both industry and agriculture, and on top of that prohibiting the country from joining Germany to ensure its own miserable condition will have a lasting effect.

Are there still miserable lasting effects post ww2? American here so a question of curiosity.

 

[1 Star General]

You mean demand back? It's not like Upper Silesia joined Poland peacefully and on its own.

edit: grammar

There was a referendum held there, under allied supervision, so yes, as a matter of fact Upper Silesia joined Poland by its own decision. And not all of it, large part voted the other way and joined Germany.

 

[sekelsenmat]

Before World War II starts I always have a feeling of "look how big Germany is now, it should have stopped there, but the government that made these territorial expansions possible was also a government bent on war, so it was impossible".

Assuming that this wasn't impossible and the Nazi party changed their mind, wanted to preserve the expanded Germany, arguing that they have already recovered their dignity lost in the humiliating peace of World World I.

Was it possible to just stop there without the Allies trying to pressure Germany to give back Austria and Czechoslovakia?

And even more interesting, was it possible for Poland to accept a "Danzig for Slovakia" with a German guarantee of independence under the pretext that "a country for Germans and a country for Slavs" ?

My guess is no, given Hitler's former adventures in Austria and Czechoslovakia everyone assumed that after Danzing, Poland will fall next.

There are several major issues with this:

1> The "Danzig for Slovakia" in the game offers the whole East-Pomeranian region to Germany, a region which was inhabited by poles except the city of Danzig (which was neutral, not inside Poland), so it is even more then Hitler asked in real life and would require Poland betraying their own people.

2> The consolation prize, Slovakia is filled with .... slovakians (and hungarians in the south). Why would Poland want a region filled with people angry that Poland suddenly took their country? I think that in no point in the entire history of Poland was Slovakia inside its borders, so there is not even a remote historical justification.

3> The German independence guarantee is obviously worthless.

4> Danzig is in the same river as Warsaw and Krakow, it was a major transportation waterway for Poland. Yes, theorically Poland could build a huge canal bypassing the city but it would really, really hard and expensive.

5> There is significant evidence that Hitler wanted land in the east, not really Danzig: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland#Background

"With minor exceptions German national unification has been achieved. Further successes cannot be achieved without bloodshed. Poland will always be on the side of our adversaries... Danzig is not the objective. It is a matter of expanding our living space in the east, of making our food supply secure, and solving the problem of the Baltic states. To provide sufficient food you must have sparsely settled areas. There is therefore no question of sparing Poland, and the decision remains to attack Poland at the first opportunity. We cannot expect a repetition of Czechoslovakia. There will be fighting."

Conclusion:

German "reunification" was already achieved, the further step was purely expansionism.

"Stopping at the right step" requires a brilliant leader, and luck. All the steps before were only taken due to betting, riskying, being agressive. A shy, cautious leader wouldn't have taken Czechslovakia... so it would be really hard to have a leader which would do it.

I guess that there are some parallels in real life of expanding but only as much as possible without crossing the red lines. Turkey and Russia come to mind.

 

[Graf Radetzky]

I think that in no point in the entire history of Poland was Slovakia inside its borders

I agree, but still gotta nitpick about the tiny territories:
-The disputed "Goral" territories in Orava, Spiš and elsewhere along the common border.
-Poland was lent several cities in Spiš from 1412 to 1772.

 

[1 Star General]

1> The "Danzig for Slovakia" in the game offers the whole East-Pomeranian region to Germany, a region which was inhabited by poles except the city of Danzig (which was neutral, not inside Poland), so it is even more then Hitler asked in real life and would require Poland betraying their own people.

2> The consolation prize, Slovakia is filled with .... slovakians (and hungarians in the south). Why would Poland want a region filled with people angry that Poland suddenly took their country? I think that in no point in the entire history of Poland was Slovakia inside its borders, so there is not even a remote historical justification.

I agree that potential agreement between the German's and Poles is poorly represented in the game. The core issue that could bring it about was potential alliance against the Soviet's, and the major compensation offered for Gdansk was not Slovakia, which was just a part of the package. Poland was to be given access to the Black Sea, through then Soviet Ukraine.

4> Danzig is in the same river as Warsaw and Krakow, it was a major transportation waterway for Poland. Yes, theorically Poland could build a huge canal bypassing the city but it would really, really hard and expensive.

Poland ACTUALLY did make a massive investment in the interwar period to avoid reliance on Gdansk (Danzig) as it's export hub (since the city was not under it's political control - it was a free city - and it was majority German, very pro-nazi and fiercely opposed Poland's interference). A great seaport in Gdynia (near Gdansk) and a major railway connecting it to Polish Silesia (major industrial and mining region) were built. These investments were largely finished, operational and successful long before the start of WW2.

5> There is significant evidence that Hitler wanted land in the east, not really Danzig

The quote you use to back it up is from May 1939. The talks between the Germans and the Poles had long broke down by that point. It was already after Beck's (Polish FM) visit in London, British guarantees and famous Beck's speech in Polish parliament in which he declared there will be no accomodation with Germany. So, it's been clear by that point there will be no agreement and by saying that Hitler is just stating the obvious. And as far as I agree that the eastern expansion was pre-determined and the whole affair of Gdansk was minor in comparison to the wider plans of Nazi leadership, it was very important symbolically (largely German, very pro-nazi population) and therefore important politically. And, what's more important regarding the point you make in your post - eastward expansion of the 3rd reich was mainly conceived as colonizing soviet lands. Yes, Poland was in the way, and it's debatable if it could survive if surrounded by Nazi Germany, but Polish core lands were not so important for Germans and were not necessarily part of the 'Lebensraum' plans.

In general I'd say there was a chance for some sort of German-Polish rapprochement in the winter of 1938/1939. It was ultimately denied by the Poles, but things could have played out differently. Hitler was rather surprised by the sudden stiffening up of the Brits.

 

[stavern]

In Hoi3 i think it was scripted that if you had not started a war by 1940 England would declare war on you. I never tried a game by being at peace for entire game. Made the Danzig for Slovakia trade a couple times and stayed in peace until 1942 before got bored and started war.