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Invader_Canuck

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No offense, but you can't honestly believe that no other developer could make a game like HOI. Other developers with more resources and a reputation for consistently releasing quality games upon release (i.e. Bungie) could definately take a good crack at the genre. I'm not saying that PI should stop making games or anything, just that your putting them on a pedastal for making WW2 grand strategy games is not really deserved, as I think there are other developers who could give them some pretty stiff competition.

Remind me what good games Bungie has made?

Don't say HALO, because HALO is not a good game by PC standards it it a PISS POOR FPS. HALO is a popular game because it was the first semi decent FPS to show up on console by console standards.

Could other developers take a crack at a game like HOI3? Sure. However keep in mind that nothing Bungie has ever made approximates even 10% of the complexity and depth of any of the HOI titles.

It's the difference between a trashy airport novel and War and Peace.
 

Laotze

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The largest invasion undertaken during the war was Barbarossa, with 145 German divisions and a handful of other allied troops. Their supply problems were legendary. The US government decided early on that they couldn't supply more than 100 divisions, and that's split between two fronts. Even with that, there were still supply issues.

The idea that there should be 2-300 divisions x2 floating around France is just retarded. Supply would be impossible. Which brings up the most common reason people meet supply walls - they build an army that is far too big for the job it needs to do. I can mass 300 divisions on the Soviet border and just roll all over it, but I can hardly expect to get much further without serious supply issues. Also, my out of supply divisions would be wise to not move further beyond the range of supply if they ever want to eat again. They've already moved beyond it, what makes them think it will catch up to them if they keep moving? Thus why they sit and don't attack.

Semper Fi will be awesome, no doubt. I will enjoy it immensely.


Trouble with this line of thought that while true in the sense that supply was difficult for numerous countries, it was accomplished. The Germans ended Barbarosa on the doorsteps of Leningrad and Moscow. In game once they got going the supply would run out and they'd never be able to move again. This is where player frustration sinks in. They don't have anyway of knowing how many divisions their supply system can handle unitl it breaks and then there is not much they can do about it. Historically, they would have underfed divisions with supplies but those divisions could at least move and function at some level of ability. In game outta supply means worthless.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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The forums on World in Flames are very active too and have been that way for a long time, yet the game is nowhere in sight after 10 years. So, Bitter Glory is in vaporware status too as it has been put on hold apparently indefinately until they feel they have the time and/or monies to pull it off (which may never happen btw).

How come they have mentioned a release date later this year then... perhaps they feel to lure us into a false sense of hope!?! ;)

The question is would you want Paradox to be active on twitter and NOT have HoI3 in it's current state or have HoI3 patched to 1.4 (and actually playable) with a soon to be released expansion? As I stated before, I would MUCH rather have a game released sooner even if it's not 100% as long as I know the developer (like Paradox) will stand by it and fix the issues, whether in patches or expansions. Just mho however. Your opnions may differ :)

I never intended to compare the two games in that regard... I'm happy that I can play HoI3 until this game are released... if it is as you say... though I believe strongly that it will since this game is why all the other games have been created by the developers. This is what they stated several times and they seem capable enough to pull it of in my opinion.
 

cougar46

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Trouble with this line of thought that while true in the sense that supply was difficult for numerous countries, it was accomplished. The Germans ended Barbarosa on the doorsteps of Leningrad and Moscow. In game once they got going the supply would run out and they'd never be able to move again. This is where player frustration sinks in. They don't have anyway of knowing how many divisions their supply system can handle unitl it breaks and then there is not much they can do about it. Historically, they would have underfed divisions with supplies but those divisions could at least move and function at some level of ability. In game outta supply means worthless.

Ever heard of the August Pause?
 

unmerged(148761)

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Remind me what good games Bungie has made?

Don't say HALO, because HALO is not a good game by PC standards it it a PISS POOR FPS. HALO is a popular game because it was the first semi decent FPS to show up on console by console standards.

Could other developers take a crack at a game like HOI3? Sure. However keep in mind that nothing Bungie has ever made approximates even 10% of the complexity and depth of any of the HOI titles.

It's the difference between a trashy airport novel and War and Peace.

Halo had a good, fun story, an immersive atmosphere, and well-balanced game play. I don't agree that it was a bad FPS. Moreover, criticizing an FPS for lacking depth and complexity is like criticizing a grand strategy game for lacking a good story. It doesn't make sense to compare two different genres or to say that one developer is better than another when they set out to do different things. I don't think anything about HOI or the grand strategy genre is inherently harder to develop than a FPS. In fact, Paradox basically has a niche market to itself with next to no competition whereas any FPS game will have an absurd amount of competitors, so I would say it is harder to make a shooter game that stands above the rest than it is to make a Hearts of Iron game.
 

Daelyn75

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Ever heard of the August Pause?

Wow someone else that knows that the panzers were stopped for three weeks?

This is the first time i've ever heard of anyone else bring it up.

But yeah they did stop to repair/refit for three weeks right after Smolensk. It also gave the infantry more than enough time to catch up with the motorized units.
 

unmerged(148761)

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Wow someone else that knows that the panzers were stopped for three weeks?

This is the first time i've ever heard of anyone else bring it up.

But yeah they did stop to repair/refit for three weeks right after Smolensk. It also gave the infantry more than enough time to catch up with the motorized units.

To put it in game terms, I think would be a case of units with low organization choosing to stop temporarily and reorganizing. I don't think it is represented by units completely running out of supplies and being paralyzed.
 

cougar46

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To put it in game terms, I think would be a case of units with low organization choosing to stop temporarily and reorganizing. I don't think it is represented by units completely running out of supplies and being paralyzed.

Oh no the primary reason for the August Pause was logistical issues. Several Panzer divisions in Beck's and Rundstedt's group ground to a complete halt due to their inability to transfer sufficient supplies of ammunition and fuel forward. The logistics planning for Barbarossa were terrible, Eduard Wagner who was the chief logistic officer for the OKH estimated the soldiers would need roughly the same supplies they were required in the low countries and France so they were short handed from the start. The problem of shipping supplies wasn't given a whole lot of thought, again they viewed it similar to their invasion of the west. Once the Soviet Union finally got mobilized near the end of July their ill equipped and poorly led brigades essentially went human wave on the Germans, forcing them to burn through ammo and fuel at an expedited rate. The divisions were for the most part hodgepodged together as far as equipment went, (IE they'd have French, Czech, and German tanks all in one brigade) which gave added problems and length supplying them. German troops were forced to forage through food because the demand for fuel and ammo was so high they couldn't ship the food at the same time as it took "invaluable space".

So yes, there were several divisions in the Central and South Army Groups that came to a halt because they literally ran out of fuel and bullets which in turn forced Leeb (Who also had a slew of other problems) in the North to come to a halt as well, and this created the August Pause.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(90249)

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That's THE point some angry players keep on ignoring while doing their unconstructive complainings about HOI3.

This game is still the most ambitious WW2 game ever made, regardless the bugs and the unsuitable mechanics.

The point is : how to improve it.
I still can't understand people who have nothing else to do but to laugh at the devs or denigrate the game without proposing new concepts.

Well, I believe the company that once existed in Villeurbane (in the early 80') that distribuated pretty ambitious games (close to what HOI3 is today) but 30 years ago.

As I do not want to advertise for competitor, but they were located in Villeurbane, it was possible to go there and met the devs (did it several time while I was positioned in La Valbone). For a 'Gone' (that is a guy in local language) you have a very short memory , haven't you mate? Wargame did not wait HOI3 to be a level over Gnafron.
 

nessin

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Remind me what good games Bungie has made?

Don't say HALO, because HALO is not a good game by PC standards it it a PISS POOR FPS. HALO is a popular game because it was the first semi decent FPS to show up on console by console standards.

Could other developers take a crack at a game like HOI3? Sure. However keep in mind that nothing Bungie has ever made approximates even 10% of the complexity and depth of any of the HOI titles.

It's the difference between a trashy airport novel and War and Peace.

Bungie made the Myth games. Regardless of your opinion of Halo, the Myth series is f'in amazing.

Well, I believe the company that once existed in Villeurbane (in the early 80') that distribuated pretty ambitious games (close to what HOI3 is today) but 30 years ago.

Sounds like Infogrames. I don't know much about their pre-90s releases, but considering how little I can find, I doubt they had anything going close to HOI3. Seems most of it was actually family games, although I've seen several references to them trying to branch out and failing.
 

Darkrenown

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Bungie made the Myth games. Regardless of your opinion of Halo, the Myth series is f'in amazing.

Not saying Myth wasn't good, but Bungie did manage to include the mother of all bugs in Myth2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_(computer_game_series)#Myth_II_installer_bug
The original version of the Myth II: Soulblighter contained a serious bug. The bug was that the CD contained an uninstaller which would remove Myth from a computer by deleting the directory in which it had been installed. If the user had overridden the default and installed Myth to the root level of his hard drive, the uninstaller would delete the entire contents of the user's hard drive.

This bug was caught after Myth II CDs had been sent out and also duplicated and boxed to ship to stores. Bungie employees went to the factory, tore open the boxes, and replaced the faulty CDs with new CDs on which the uninstaller bug had been fixed. Luckily, only the marketing person who discovered the bug had his hard drive wiped. Martin O' Donnell confirmed all this data in an episode of the Bungie Podcast.

:D
 

dilk

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Oh no the primary reason for the August Pause was logistical issues. Several Panzer divisions in Beck's and Rundstedt's group ground to a complete halt due to their inability to transfer sufficient supplies of ammunition and fuel forward. The logistics planning for Barbarossa were terrible, Eduard Wagner who was the chief logistic officer for the OKH estimated the soldiers would need roughly the same supplies they were required in the low countries and France so they were short handed from the start. The problem of shipping supplies wasn't given a whole lot of thought, again they viewed it similar to their invasion of the west. Once the Soviet Union finally got mobilized near the end of July their ill equipped and poorly led brigades essentially went human wave on the Germans, forcing them to burn through ammo and fuel at an expedited rate. The divisions were for the most part hodgepodged together as far as equipment went, (IE they'd have French, Czech, and German tanks all in one brigade) which gave added problems and length supplying them. German troops were forced to forage through food because the demand for fuel and ammo was so high they couldn't ship the food at the same time as it took "invaluable space".

So yes, there were several divisions in the Central and South Army Groups that came to a halt because they literally ran out of fuel and bullets which in turn forced Leeb (Who also had a slew of other problems) in the North to come to a halt as well, and this created the August Pause.

yes, but they had the problems because they had not enough supply. but what if I in game enough supplies in stock. that would represent that I hadn't make the same mistake IRL. problem is, how I mentioned before that you can't manage your supply system actively and that you are not able to build supply depots near the front.
 

journ21

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yes, but they had the problems because they had not enough supply. but what if I in game enough supplies in stock. that would represent that I hadn't make the same mistake IRL. problem is, how I mentioned before that you can't manage your supply system actively and that you are not able to build supply depots near the front.

You nailed it.

No control or very little isnt a good thing :mad:
 

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Their initial stocks weren't at the level they should have been no, again that was poor preparation. But ultimately the logistics failed because, as Darkrenown said, they simply could not get supplies out to their troops at a fast enough pace. They had plenty of depots and reserves, but no way to get the supplies from the depots and reserves to the troops. Key issues were transportation.

First the majority of the rails were of a different gauge then those used in Europe, so after the Germans finally got wise and started move along the rails, (Initially they moved along the roads which kept the rails in Soivet hands for the most part) they were forced to replace the tracks so they could be used by them, and this proved incredibly difficult and time consuming. Since rails were out of the question they had to rely on roads, the problem here is the trucks were designed for use in Western Europe, out on the broken roads of Russia they were useless.

Some telling stats stats to give you an idea, on the first 19 days of operations 25% of their trucks had broken down, 17% beyond repair. For Army Group North, one of the depots that operated along one of the few functioning rail lines was supposed to receive and unload supplies every 3 hours, in reality it took 80-100 hours. The Luftwaffe in Eastern Europe were functioning at a 30% operating rate due to their inability to receive supplies at a steady rate and a chunk of that 30% was used to fly fuel out to the panzer divisions. By the end of July units ammunition stocks averaged below 50% and this dropped to 20% in the first week of August. Because of that limited ability to deliver supplies they had to prioritize. Ammo was given primary with fuel getting a slight cut. Food, clothing, repair parts, guns, ect, were almost completely halted. As a result only 47% of the mechanized units in the Panzer divisions were operational by August's end, most forced to sit on the battle field needing simple repairs to become operational, the troops were forced to pillage, and they lacked proper gear for the coming fall/winter weather shift.

Germany had plenty of supplies and reserves set up, but due to poor infrastructure and terrible planning (And several other issues I listed above) they could not keep supplies flowing to their troops at a reliable rate. And these numbers are just the first couple of months that led to the August Pause which was the grinding halt on the Panzer divisions. We're not even into the fall and winter time when weather impacted the logistics and slowed it down at an even greater rate.

I just don't understand why people are finding it so hard to believe that units ran out of supplies and were forced to halt for an extended period of time. It happened countless times during Barbarossa, Japanese troops were fighting starved and bullet less on the various islands in the Pacific. The U.S., by far the most logistically capable nation in the war, had frequent supply issues in North Africa and Europe. Hell there were a couple Panzer divisions that were forced to halt in France and the low countries for a day or two due to low fuel. Logistics was incredibly difficult to plan and even harder to actually do. Does it happen more frequently in HoI 3 then it did in real life, yes. Is it at a much higher rate, not really no. Unfortunately there are system limitations that prevent them from using ideal models and this lends to that higher ratio. But why people act as if it didn't happen and try to ignore the fact it was incredibly difficult and at times impossible to get supplies from their depots, reserves, caches, sources, ect. to their troops on the front line is beyond me.
 
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Laotze

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Wow someone else that knows that the panzers were stopped for three weeks?

This is the first time i've ever heard of anyone else bring it up.

But yeah they did stop to repair/refit for three weeks right after Smolensk. It also gave the infantry more than enough time to catch up with the motorized units.

Three weeks, in game its forever! Apples and oranges. This does not prove your point. They stopped to resupply and refit. It wasn't along the entire front. In game though the entire front would be out of supplies and no single unit could move. Its just not the same.
 

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The problem I find with supply is that its not really a problem and unrealistic.

For example you don't have fuel in HOI3 what you have is electric tanks that must be plugged into a grid, if you outpace the electricians you will have no power, if you strategically deploy to a province where the grid has been removed you have no power.

I believe that for supply to work and to become a really important part of the game play you need basically ports inland. That certain areas such as cities become essential cogs in the supply system, they should always be supplied and have the capability to build up supplies. One way of doing this is to have them behave like ports and have an ability to re- base armies to a city much like a fleet.

Cities, ports and airports should be major distribution points for all supplies. If I tried to imagine a simplified but realistic system I would see the capital as the main reservoir and supplies flowing out to fill up the regional reservoirs (based in ports, airports and urban centres)

It is from these Supply Dumps that units within range get supplied this rate of supply is modified by the infrastructure, you can push a unit beyond its supply range but increase the penalties until it can get no supplies whatsoever, winter could half the range of Supply dumps.

Of course you may then be able to make it more brutal and less forgiving for example if you quickly shift your armies from a victory in Poland to the French border you will simply not have enough supplies to attack immediately. You would need to re-base your armies to cities like Dresden or Cologne only then would supplies from the east start shifting to the west in large numbers. We must have already some system that can calculate the range of HQ so perhaps this could be adjusted to calculate a range for supply.

In the end I would like a supply system that was tougher and more realistic and became part of the game play its not really at the moment.

Now that I have done the hard work go off and make it so Paradox.:)
 

PrivateJoh

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I just don't understand why people are finding it so hard to believe that units ran out of supplies and were forced to halt for an extended period of time.

Agreed.

But what I also don't understand is why people continue to compare the game to what happened in real life. HoI3 does not even try to resemble reality. I am not saying this is either good or bad, just a design decision to enhance replayability according to devs. Real life problems in WW2 have little to do with HoI3. Likewise, problems in HoI3 do not (sometimes) have anything to do with real life.

Example: Axis supply problems in North Africa:
In real life, they were caused by harassment of the British fleet stationed in Gibraltar, and air unit in different isles in the Mediterranean.
In game: Italy has conquered all bordering regions to the Mediterranean. At the same time, Gibraltar and all other Mediterranean isles are in Axis hands due to heroic combined amphibious and airborne assaults. Same goes for North African lands. Mediterranean is free of Allies units, both naval and air. Republican Spain, which happened to win the Spanish Civil war, lies under Mussolini's boot. All fine, BUT ... my single infantry division in Morocco is being annihilated by chronic lack of supplies, while their fellow country men in Gibraltar are enjoying exquisite French champagne.

So you see, for me is hard to believe that these poor fellows are dying by the minute without me being able to do anything about it.

Of course, this is an extreme example, but you have surely seen others around these threads.