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Captain Olle said:
That's probably the best way to solve this.

A little offtopic; Correct if I'm wrong but wasn't it the 60th aniversary of the Warsaw Uprising here some weeks ago:confused: . Came in my mind when I read this thread.

it was on the 1st of August.

F
 

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Captain Olle said:
That's probably the best way to solve this.

A little offtopic; Correct if I'm wrong but wasn't it the 60th aniversary of the Warsaw Uprising here some weeks ago:confused: . Came in my mind when I read this thread.

Yep it was 1st of August :)
 

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Orthank said:
Event may be, not a science fiction that it was close to war between Western Allies and USSR.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it science-fiction, on the contrary, it was only thanks to the Americans that the Allies stuck together in the end. Churchill knew the Soviets weren't gonna be satisfied with just liberating countries from the fascists, they were gonna take the opportunity to spread communism, something Eisenhower totally ignored. Again, if you've read Berlin, you'll know about the different events that very well could've escalated to a cut of communications, if not war. If it hadn't been for the American compliancy and will to end the war as quickly and with as few casualties as possible, that is... Most Allied generals still remembered the time in the beginning of the war where the Allies were about to send an expeditionary force to Finland as aid against the communist threat... So, to say it simply, the Polish question might well have been the spark that would've set the world ablaze, so to speak...
 

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Blitzkreig said:
I wouldn't go as far as to call it science-fiction, on the contrary, it was only thanks to the Americans that the Allies stuck together in the end. Churchill knew the Soviets weren't gonna be satisfied with just liberating countries from the fascists, they were gonna take the opportunity to spread communism, something Eisenhower totally ignored. Again, if you've read Berlin, you'll know about the different events that very well could've escalated to a cut of communications, if not war. If it hadn't been for the American compliancy and will to end the war as quickly and with as few casualties as possible, that is... Most Allied generals still remembered the time in the beginning of the war where the Allies were about to send an expeditionary force to Finland as aid against the communist threat... So, to say it simply, the Polish question might well have been the spark that would've set the world ablaze, so to speak...

Agree that's why i wrote "not a science fiction".
 

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Orthank said:
Agree that's why i wrote "not a science fiction".

Forgive me, english is not my first language, but "Event may be, not a science fiction that it was close to war between Western Allies and USSR." sounded to me like you meant that such an event would be science-fiction. Which, you apparently didn't, so never mind me then. :p
 

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Blitzkreig said:
Forgive me, english is not my first language, but "Event may be, not a science fiction that it was close to war between Western Allies and USSR." sounded to me like you meant that such an event would be science-fiction. Which, you apparently didn't, so never mind me then. :p

he translated direct from polish thats why it sounds the way it does - at first I was confused too.

F
 

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Fiendix said:
he translated direct from polish thats why it sounds the way it does - at first I was confused too.

F

Ah, thanks... *Mumbles something about polish people before his half-polish girlfriend smacks him on the head.*
 

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I thinks this is at the moment too ambiotios for the project and could come in one on the patches,so we could give it a rest.

No offense,for example I personally would like to see also the fightings in Yugoslavia after the ocupation.But well first things first...

In some cases Axis(and this doesent include Croatian or kvisling armies) had around 90,000 - 600,000 troops in Yugoslavia just for keeping the order.And those troops were mostly German.There were 3 SS divisions fighting in Yugoslavia.
 

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I thinks this is at the moment too ambiotios for the project and could come in one on the patches,so we could give it a rest.

Not really, adding text into the game after release is not normal Paradox policy AFAIK, as there are translation issues. So what you get initially in terms of events is all it will be for official versions of the game, I'm afraid.
 

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Nidza said:
I thinks this is at the moment too ambiotios for the project and could come in one on the patches,so we could give it a rest.

No offense,for example I personally would like to see also the fightings in Yugoslavia after the ocupation.But well first things first...

In some cases Axis(and this doesent include Croatian or kvisling armies) had around 90,000 - 600,000 troops in Yugoslavia just for keeping the order.And those troops were mostly German.There were 3 SS divisions fighting in Yugoslavia.

No this is the moment to discuss about that, if it's not to late already. So if you are not an official from Paradox let us allow to discuss just a little bit longer - about Warsaw Uprising and Poland in HoI - thx.

Your info about Yugoslavia is great but i think u missed the topic, if you think (well i actually do) that it's worth to increase some Yugoslavia's events feel free to start a new one thread please.

Cheers,
Orthank
 

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A quick question/confirmation, after the Warsaw uprising was over did the Germans not go on a killing spree and murder many innocent civilians as punishment?

If that is so would then this event fall under Johan's "not representing atrocities rule" in HOI and thus the event should not be put into HOI2?

Just a thought

Corey
 

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coreymas said:
A quick question/confirmation, after the Warsaw uprising was over did the Germans not go on a killing spree and murder many innocent civilians as punishment?

If that is so would then this event fall under Johan's "not representing atrocities rule" in HOI and thus the event should not be put into HOI2?

Just a thought

Corey

AFAIK, about 120 000 civilians lost their lives during the Warsaw Uprising (though that number is from a newspaper article, so don't shoot me if it's wrong).

As for the atrocities thing, I don't think it's an issue as long as you don't have an event for Germany (if, and in that case after the Uprising is put down), where it gives you the choice to commit those actions. As long as we leave it at a division-scale grand strategy level, it should be allright...
 

coreymas

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Blitzkrieg,

Actually Maximilian's rule is as follows:

NOTE: There will not be any gulags or deathcamps (including POW camps) to build in Hearts of Iron2, nor will there be the ability to simulate the Holocaust or systematic purges, so I ask you not to discuss these topics as they are not related to this game. Thank You.

I think that murdering 120000 civilians constitutes "systematic purges" and I believe it should not be in the game.

Besides I think that the event in question, while very significant in history (and in my opinion utterly horrible) does not belong in a strategic warfare game like HOI. While it would add flavor to the game I do not believe it would have any effect on a strategic level.

Just like the systematic purges in Yugoslavia by Tito's partisans throughout the war (and after) are in my opinion should not be represented in the game.

To Maximilian (if you read this) please do not ban me for saying what I have said, I was just simply giving my opinion on the subject. Also I am not insinuating that anyone else in this thread has said anything or acted inappropriately.

Again just my humble opinion,

Corey
 

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The battle in itself was not a systematic purge (although many civilians probably died in the urban warfare), it was the retaliation of the Germans after the battle was won that hit the civilians the hardest. So I still disagree, including a "Warsaw Uprising" event would not necessarily break the rule. As long as the event is isolated to the battle itself and doesn't bring up what happened historically afterwards...
 

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Blitzkreig said:
AFAIK, about 120 000 civilians lost their lives during the Warsaw Uprising (though that number is from a newspaper article, so don't shoot me if it's wrong).

As for the atrocities thing, I don't think it's an issue as long as you don't have an event for Germany (if, and in that case after the Uprising is put down), where it gives you the choice to commit those actions. As long as we leave it at a division-scale grand strategy level, it should be allright...

150 - 200 000 including soldiers.

I agree with the second part. We should leave it grand scale why get in "that" stuff....

F
 

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coreymas said:
A quick question/confirmation, after the Warsaw uprising was over did the Germans not go on a killing spree and murder many innocent civilians as punishment?

If that is so would then this event fall under Johan's "not representing atrocities rule" in HOI and thus the event should not be put into HOI2?

Just a thought

Corey

Well, in HoI there is an event called "Nanking Massacre"...
 

coreymas

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Raczynski,

You are absolutely right I had forgotten about that event. I never understood why it was in HOI. Does anyone know if that event triggers anything for the Chinese player? Or for the Japanese player for that matter?

If so I would have to agree that it would break the Maximilian rule of No atrocities represented in HOI2.

Corey
 

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If there aren't any events like "Kill civilians and destroy everything in Warsaw" after the uprising or "Use civilians as shields" during it, It shouldn't break any rules. If you don't want anything connected with purges etc. there shouldn't be any IIWW game :confused:
 

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The Warsaw Uprising shouldn't be in because a spanking new resistance model should be able to cover all potential major discord, not because civilians were killed :rolleyes: do we want a game representing WWII or some kind of girly pillow fight?

It's not as if anyone was proposing an event that allowed you to take it out on civilians, or the Warsaw ghetto, just the fact of the rebellion, which, let's face it, had quite some military and political significance, and could have had more.
 

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It seems to me that the Warsaw uprising event should be made a mainly Soviet Event, generally because the Soviet Army was the closest thong there, except for Germany ofcourse. Anyway since the revolt was put down by the SS and SD (atleast as far as I know) and the game tries to avoid simulating atrocities with actual units, this becomes a statistic problem, ie, Germany, is forced to waste <<supplies>> to put down the uprising as opposed to actual militia having to fight. This is a problem because the German AI is often quite incompetent and could easily lose to the Polish militia, creating an allied state that will effectively block Soviet forces to Germany.

Instead I propose this:
A soviet event called Warsaw uprising, the choices would be (A) allow governement in exile to return to poland, giving poland all of is territorries back (this would be a token choice that no one in their right mind would choose and that the AI should be hardcoded not to choose); (B) Let the poles fight themselves, it would trigger Germany to lose supplies to put down the uprising and then the Red army would conquer Poland and evetually make it SOV Territtory by annexing Germany (with its Polish territorries); (C) create Polish puppet state that would exist only in Warsaw, but once the Soviet Union takes the rest of the Polish lands from Germany, than there would be another event that creates a full Communist Poland, while the SU goes on to destroy Germany. Choice C should also trigger an event for UK, they are allowed to either (A) accept Soviet Puppet Poland and go on with their lives or (B) declare War on the Comintern and create a massive three way struggle in Europe.