Warlords - The Opposition branch sucks

[Enriador]

In the Chinese warlord focus tree, you have a branch called "Opposition" where you tag along Japan in opposition to both CHI and PRC.

In order to unlock the last political focus - which switches your tree to a main Chinese tree - you must have either 50% Non-Aligned support (and get the CHI tree) or 50% communist support (and get the PRC tree).

However, in the accompanying decisions, as you "Seek Japanese Support" (through decisions) there is a 40% Fascist requirement out of nowhere.

Meaning that if a player seeks Japanese support in order to "Proclaim Rival Government" with their blessing (you become a Japanese puppet so you can't be attacked) you must raise an ideology that hurts your chances of getting the better focus tree at the end of your political branch.

Shouldn't this 40% Fascist requirement be eliminated? The player's "prize" after all is becoming a puppet, not a co-partner to Japan, so no need for such a heavy limit (especially since flipping to 40% fascism before Japan declares war on you is a challenge by itself, as getting to the focus that unlocks Japanese influence takes almost a year).

The Opposition branch is underplayed for good reason - it trades the early game advantages of siding with Chiang or Mao for becoming a puppet to Japan or, if you fail to get 40% Fascist support, just getting warred on all the same.

Becoming a Japanese puppet yields little benefit. You trade being overwhelmed by Japan to being ganged on by China and the warlords, and since Japan is no democracy you cannot even escape in exile to Tokyo.

You are forced to join their wars and cannot declare wars of your own, which naturally sucks. What fun is that? Not even Manchukuo is railroaded like this. Warlords who bow to Japan should be 'Imperial Subjects' like Manchukuo, thus being able to get a bit more agency (and getting their freedom through the "Proclaim Rival Government" focus). Alternatively, maybe Japan should just guarantee the warlord instead of getting them as their puppet.

What you all think?

 

[Question]

Whats particular dumb is that the branch assumes Japan is fascist. What if Japan goes non-aligned, democratic or communist? The idealogy requirement should be based on the idealogy of Japan.

 

[Iskulya]

Good thread. I remember playing around with the warlords for the achievements and for fun, especially back when WTT was new and I thought the design here was incredibly poor.

It's just poor design and obviously they didn't put much thought into it. Hell, the political competition thing is still absolute crap and there is no way to permanently defeat your political enemies if you're the current leader of china. You have to permanently sink massive amounts of PP into contesting them or risk losing Stability and War support endlessly.

My hopes are not high that this will be revisited and made more playable, unfortunately... just another in the long list of things that are pretty dysfunctional.

 

[mpop]

Any tips playing chinese warlords? The focus tree is very lackluster and weak. Even the default focus is 3x better. Even though I manage to to push back the Japanese. The Germans overrun Russians and the game is pretty over after that.

 

[Secret Master]

You have to permanently sink massive amounts of PP into contesting them or risk losing Stability and War support endlessly.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but isn't it supposed to be that way to represent the tenuous control Chiang had on things before and during the war?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

The focus should instead require 40% of the Japan's dominant ideology. If Japan chooses to purge the Kodoha Faction and stay fascist, any warlord should have trouble to get Japanese support and then proclaim a rival government. This is realistic considered how a fascist Japan would see such a warlord as a tool helping them to take over China and not as a legitimate rival government to their puppets.
But if they go non-aligned, a friendly, pro-japanese warlord willing to replace Chiang Kai-Shek as the ruler of China should be likely to recieve their support, and they would likely help them to take over. This would synergize well with the Japanese Support the Kodoha Faction branch.
The democratic and communist branches in Japan lead to a civl war there anyway, but could be interesting to play out in coop MP if both Japan and one of the Chinese warlords are controlled by human players.

 

[Iskulya]

Maybe I'm an idiot, but isn't it supposed to be that way to represent the tenuous control Chiang had on things before and during the war?

I'm not sure because it's an ahistorical-mode only thing.

It results in something that I've liked to call "Chinese Musical Chairs" the past two years: the only winner is actually the loser, the warlord who is least able to effectively assert their leadership. Most of the warlords will take the Nationalist path that has them competing against the Nationalist China tag. Because of the way it works, you have to sink a tremendous amount of political power(I've only managed it as Nationalist China by literally not running a focus and just accruing more PP to take the support decisions), or the competitors will inevitably get their support up to the point that you have to take decisions that permanently reduce your support, or you will repeatedly lose stability and war support. Eventually this means that it is inevitable that one of the warlords will have more support, and take over.

After this, the process simply repeats, only with the rest of the warlords arrayed against the new Official China. This process then continues to repeat until there is only one warlord left, after which they inevitably take power and replace because of the way the support system works. If the system works in such a way that it is actually the warlord who works the system the least effectively and comes in last place relative to the other warlords who ultimately wins out and becomes the new Generalissimo, then this seems to be backwards in my opinion.

There is no way of permanently dealing with the situation short of war, which seems to be a poor decision decision to me. The game is also not upfront about this and the path the warlords take to gain access to the political support and Chinese leadership system usually involves forming the Chinese united front with you in it, so you have to kick the warlords that did not submit to becoming a puppet out in order to rectify the situation. Events or decisions making the situation clear and giving you the opportunity of declaring war on rival warlords or delivering a final ultimatum would have been a welcome addition.

I can appreciate what the developers were trying to do. They seemed to be trying to use the new decision system in a novel way and really showcased some of the less intuitive things that were now possible in the new system, but in practice this particular system didn't work out so well.

 

[MattZed]

Whats particular dumb is that the branch assumes Japan is fascist. What if Japan goes non-aligned, democratic or communist? The idealogy requirement should be based on the idealogy of Japan.

FALSE.

The decisions based on Japanese support are actually based on Japan's Ideology. In particular, you can become Japan's puppet if you have >40% of their ideology.

Overall, though, it's a trap focus. You get to be the puppet of someone you need to take down to unite China... why?

But that doesn't mean the Opposition branch is bad! In particular, you get:

1. The amazing focus "Border Clashes With the Nationalists," which lets you border conflict free land off of Nationalist China.
   
2. The Warlords' extra research slot, meaning you don't have to spend 7 (!) focuses getting your 5th research slot going down the "Welfare" branch of Nat. China's tree.
3. The ability to have Nat. China's focus tree without inheriting their negative focuses.

Screenshot from a recent playthrough of mine using border conflicts extensively:

 

[Enriador]

This is realistic considered how a fascist Japan would see such a warlord as a tool helping them to take over China and not as a legitimate rival government to their puppets.

But in History Japan did accept the collaboration of a minor Chinese leader, Wang Jingwei, despite already having puppet states in northeast China. Japan though it could help legitimize their (indirect) rule; imagine having the support of a Li Zongren or Ma Bufang!

Either way, Japan is Fascist on Historical mode and an entire focus branch shouldn't be screwed on Historical mode (or be on RNG's mercy on Non-Historical). The only such case is the Communist Netherlands and a very minor one since it's just one focus involved (Join the French).

The decisions based on Japanese support are actually based on Japan's Ideology.

True. Still, on Historical mode (and most of the time on Non-Historical) it's always Fascism so I used it as a shorthand.

Either way, anything short of a Non-Aligned Japan is troublesome to boost and very RNG-based.

The amazing focus "Border Clashes With the Nationalists," which lets you border conflict free land off of Nationalist China.

You can also do that under the "Cooperation with the Communists" branch! And receive superior bonuses.

The Warlords' extra research slot, meaning you don't have to spend 7 (!) focuses getting your 5th research slot going down the "Welfare" branch of Nat. China's tree.

Well, the warlords do start with just 2 research slots. Getting one earlier on isn't an advantage over China, it merely reduces the tech gap a little bit.

The ability to have Nat. China's focus tree without inheriting their negative focuses.

This can be accomplished through the "Cooperation with the Nationalists" branch and much more quickly.

The "Opposition" branch is still subpar IMHO.

 

[MattZed]

Each path has its virtues; you seem to be missing how some mechanics work, though:

You can also do that under the "Cooperation with the Communists" branch! And receive superior bonuses.

No. Border Conflicts with Nat. China are restricted to going down the Opposition path.

"Superior Bonuses" is questionable, though. While you get better political power generation with "Cooperation with the Communists", Opposition has -5% fewer consumer goods and you don't have to deal with the nasty "Soviet Tribute" national spirit.

This can be accomplished through the "Cooperation with the Nationalists" branch and much more quickly.

You miss my point; you can take over the focus tree of Nat. China without getting their army or economy debuffs. And it's only *2* more focuses to get Nat. China's focus tree, assuming you somehow manage to instantly get enough support to have 30 points under Cooperation.

 

[Enriador]

No. Border Conflicts with Nat. China are restricted to going down the Opposition path.

My apologies, I mistook Nat. China as pro-Nat. China warlords. "Anti-Opposition Campaign" is unlocked by going either with the Nationalists or the Communists, and allows border conflicts with warlords. However, you can unlock the superior Communist Chinese tree (and thus conflict with the Nationalists) by going down that the "Cooperation with the Communists" anyway.

"Superior Bonuses" is questionable, though. While you get better political power generation with "Cooperation with the Communists", Opposition has -5% fewer consumer goods and you don't have to deal with the nasty "Soviet Tribute" national spirit.

Cooperation with the communists also has the -5% fewer consumer goods (Land Value Tax focus IIRC). And Soviet Tribute is a nice trade-off to instantly annexing Communist China and getting all these sweet factories and divisions they have been building.

You miss my point; you can take over the focus tree of Nat. China without getting their army or economy debuffs. And it's only *2* more focuses to get Nat. China's focus tree, assuming you somehow manage to instantly get enough support to have 30 points under Cooperation.

Cooperating with the Nationalists doesn't give the warlord any debuffs either (while also cleaning the warlord starting debuffs):

        completion_reward = {
            load_focus_tree = china_nationalist_focus
            set_cosmetic_tag = CHI_warlord_leader
            every_state = {
                limit = {
                    is_core_of = CHI
                }
                add_core_of = ROOT

Fair argument about getting to it without being involved in the slow-going Power Struggle, but you are missing my point. The focus tree itself is usable, but it's screwed by taking much longer than it takes Japan to declare war on you, and that's because the "Seek Japanese Support" decisions are horrible, requiring 40% Fascist ideology (which HURTS your odds of taking "Proclaim Rival Government" which requires Non-Aligned ideology).

Oh, and it turns you into an useless puppet who cannot break out from Japan's control without raising Autonomy, which takes forever. The Opposition branch is pro-Japanese, but players always end up facing two awful alternatives: getting at war with Japan (which goes against the very design of the branch) or becoming a Japanese puppet.

As a pro-Communist or pro-Nationalist warlord, you can easily join a faction with Mao or Chiang to guard against Japan. As an Opposition warlord you either are a puppet, have to fight Japan on your own, or join one of the factions (which, again, goes against the "Opposition" design of the branch).

 

[MattZed]

Let me be extra clear; you're still missing some mechanics:

However, you can unlock the superior Communist Chinese tree (and thus conflict with the Nationalists) by going down that the "Cooperation with the Communists" anyway.

You can't border conflict with the Nationalists if you're Communist China. The only way to unlock border conflicts with the Nationalists is to be a Warlord, go Opposition, and take the "Border Clashes With The Nationalists" focus. Becoming Communist China won't even give you border wars against warlords that sided with Communist China. (So if you were, say, Xibei San Ma on historical focuses, no border wars for you)

I'm also going to disagree with "superior Communist Chinese tree." The Nationalist tree, although filled with debuffs, has the "Subjugate the Warlords" focus, possibly giving you some Warlord puppets.

Cooperation with the communists also has the -5% fewer consumer goods (Land Value Tax focus IIRC).

Opposition gives -10% with "War Taxes." When I said -5% "fewer," I was comparing to Cooperation With the Communists.

And Soviet Tribute is a nice trade-off to instantly annexing Communist China and getting all these sweet factories and divisions they have been building.

"Soviet Tribute" enables the Soviets to demand more and more from you up until your annexation. And if you refuse, they get a wargoal on you.

If you want to get Communist China's stuff, a successful border war for their only state will annex them, granting you their factories and equipment.

Cooperating with the Nationalists doesn't give the warlord any debuffs either (while also cleaning the warlord starting debuffs):

The debuff is applied when annex CHI, not when you get their focus tree. But I'll actually grant this as a point for Cooperating with the Nationalists as you don't technically have to annex Nationalist China.

The focus tree itself is usable, but it's screwed by taking much longer than it takes Japan to declare war on you, and that's because the "Seek Japanese Support" decisions are horrible, requiring 40% Fascist ideology (which HURTS your odds of taking "Proclaim Rival Government" which requires Non-Aligned ideology).

We have no disagreement on "Seek Japanese Support." It's TERRIBLE. But it's an optional focus. My point is that the tree as a whole is worthwhile.

The Opposition branch is pro-Japanese, but players always end up facing two awful alternatives: getting at war with Japan (which goes against the very design of the branch) or becoming a Japanese puppet.

There's nothing about the tree that makes it necessarily Pro-Japanese. It's just an option for you. You wouldn't argue that the German Fascist tree is Pro-Soviet just because you can take the "Alliance with the USSR" focus.

The "I want to unite China" optimal path under Opposition IS to to fight Japan. You declare war on Japan, assist the United Front in their war (without joining their faction), and steal land off of them left and right with border conflicts. (You can get a border conflict every six months against EACH member of the United Front you border.)

 

[Secret Master]

(You can get a border conflict every six months against EACH member of the United Front you border.)

I did not know that was possible. I thought it was just one total every six months.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

But in History Japan did accept the collaboration of a minor Chinese leader, Wang Jingwei, despite already having puppet states in northeast China. Japan though it could help legitimize their (indirect) rule; imagine having the support of a Li Zongren or Ma Bufang!

Either way, Japan is Fascist on Historical mode and an entire focus branch shouldn't be screwed on Historical mode (or be on RNG's mercy on Non-Historical). The only such case is the Communist Netherlands and a very minor one since it's just one focus involved (Join the French).

Wang Jingwei was put up at the figurehead of the puppet regime because he was a minor leader without much real power behind him. He was a former prime minister of China who lost an internal power struggle against Chiang Kai-Shek. Making him the head of the collaborationist regime gave it a (very thin) veneer of legitimacy. A warlord who never ruled all of China before wouldn't give any legitimacy. The Japanese leadership could be sure that Wang Jingwei would remain loyal to them because he believed that China was too weak to defeat Japan. Li Zongren, Ma Bufang or any other warlord would seem less reliable to a fascist Japan. They wouldn't give them power over all China fearing that they could rebel once thay've cemented their rule.

A non-aligned Japan has different plans. The Kodoha Faction branch leads them to a war with the Soviets in Siberia. Having a friendly government in China would secure Japanese forces fighting in the North from a Chinese attack and a two-front war, and helping a pro-Japanese Warlord to esteblish such a government should seem like a good thing to them.

 

[Enriador]

Becoming Communist China won't even give you border wars against warlords that sided with Communist China. (So if you were, say, Xibei San Ma on historical focuses, no border wars for you)

Xibei San Ma and Sinkiang are both too isolated. The fault is with the geography, not the branches' design.

If you want to get Communist China's stuff, a successful border war for their only state will annex them, granting you their factories and equipment.

Only applies to two tags (Shanxi and Xibei San Ma). Cooperating with the Communists annexes Communist China as any warlord.

We have no disagreement on "Seek Japanese Support." It's TERRIBLE. But it's an optional focus. My point is that the tree as a whole is worthwhile.

Wait, you agree! But that's what I complained about in the opening post - the tree sucks because its major diplomatic "advantage", siding with Japan, is antagonistic to the rest of the branch. We have derailed a bit.

There's nothing about the tree that makes it necessarily Pro-Japanese.

Of course there is: an entire national focus unlocking several decisions. It's indeed not obligatory, but the tree is clearly built with this intention in mind.

A warlord who never ruled all of China before wouldn't give any legitimacy

Wang didn't rule all of it either, since real power stayed with the Right-wing of the KMT under Chiang.

And Japan has approched and allied major warlords before, notably in the Fengtian clique during the 1920s. Having someone like Yan Xishan as an ally would be welcomed by Japan; damn, they even tried to convince Chiang Kai-shek himself!

Fair points about Non-Aligned Japan, but that's a meager what, 20% chance with Historical AI off?

 

[MattZed]

Xibei San Ma and Sinkiang are both too isolated. The fault is with the geography, not the branches' design.

Xibei San Ma is actually the best-positioned warlord for border conflicts under Opposition. (they border Sinkiang, Shanxi, Communist China, and Nat. China) But this is completely wasted if they cooperate with the Communists.

And this is my whole point: the "Opposition" branch is good because of the ability to have border conflicts.

Only applies to two tags (Shanxi and Xibei San Ma). Cooperating with the Communists annexes Communist China as any warlord.

It's not that hard to border conflict Communist China as any other warlord; you just need to get territory next to them first.

Wait, you agree! But that's what I complained about in the opening post - the tree sucks because its major diplomatic "advantage", siding with Japan, is antagonistic to the rest of the branch. We have derailed a bit.

There's a world of difference between a focus sucking and a tree/sub-branch sucking. My point is that the focus sucks but the tree is still good because of the other things is provides!

Of course there is: an entire national focus unlocking several decisions. It's indeed not obligatory, but the tree is clearly built with this intention in mind.

*One* focus gives the intention for an entire tree? Is New Deal USA supposed to Suspend the Persecution and ally with communist nations just because it's not mutually exclusive with the democratic path?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Wang didn't rule all of it either, since real power stayed with the Right-wing of the KMT under Chiang.

And Japan has approched and allied major warlords before, notably in the Fengtian clique during the 1920s. Having someone like Yan Xishan as an ally would be welcomed by Japan; damn, they even tried to convince Chiang Kai-shek himself!

Wang was at least the de-jure head of the Chinese government from 1932 to 1935 and recognized as such by all major powers. The warlords were at best recognized as provincial governors or high-ranked generals, and at worst considered overpowered bandits. Allying warlords so that they help fighting the KMT government is be one thing, handing over all of China (even nominally) to one of them would have been too much.

 

[LiberiusX]

Let’s face it, many of the focus trees are broken and really need some TLC. The USA tree is a travesty(and the Fascist USA AI still has a modifier “wants to join the Allies” affecting it’s diplomacy).

The rest of the world, besides France, acts like Hitler is in power when Hitler is deposed. Mexico gets stuck in an endless series of rebellions if it deviates from the historical path. Etc. etc.

The development of the focus trees reminds me of some of the processes developed at my work. People build them and then walk away. When stuff breaks, they just shrug.

Also, Japan AI, if set on the “neutral”(anti-soviet) path, can instead choose communist China as a target. This not only defeats the purpose of the setting, as the result is essentially the same as the historical path, but also can lead to a scenario where anti-soviet Japan joins the Comintern to defeat an aggressive National Front(that was attacking a non-aligned Yunnan, that joined the Comintern when attacked....) confused yet? Me too.

 

[Enriador]

*One* focus gives the intention for an entire tree? Is New Deal USA supposed to Suspend the Persecution and ally with communist nations just because it's not mutually exclusive with the democratic path?

The focus certainly sets the tone in my opinion. I do not think the US is a good analogy because the Democratic branches are clearly independent from the socialist branch.

The warlords were at best recognized as provincial governors or high-ranked generals, and at worst considered overpowered bandits

And why can't provincial governors or high-ranked generals be considered viable alternatives by foreign powers? Soviet Russia, Britain, Japan all supported regional warlords at some point, some of them at odds with the central government.

Wang Jingwei had little legitimacy when the Japanese put him in Nanjing. He wasn't elected, his own party (KMT) kicked him out, and the United Nations denounced his government as ultimately illegitimate.

Allying warlords so that they help fighting the KMT government is be one thing, handing over all of China (even nominally) to one of them would have been too much.

I disagree. An example: the entire non-socialist world world recognized a warlord, Li Zongren, as President of all China in the 1940s. Nobody complained.

 

[Enriador]

the "Opposition" branch is good because of the ability to have border conflicts.

P.S.: That serves little purpose when you have little more than a year before Japan comes knocking. Warlords need to manage their PP carefully, and equipment is hard to come by. Border conflicts with a major war on the horizon isn't much of a consolation; you can grab what, half a dozen states if you really optimize it?