Warhammer? Um.....

[Doctor Machete]

With the large COILs having decent range and the AI's tendency to attack the nearest target, you might not need to worry about cover too much. Or about armor. For a sniper-design that stays in the back, unless you are in an urban environment with lots of LoS/LoF blockers, this could work out quite well. We'll see next week

Sure, ML and SRM boats still will be most efficient imo. But I'm not really into the "most efficient" way all the time, sometimes I just want to try out new stuff and ways to annihilate

The problem with those large Coils is that even with their long range you still need to walk, and most likely walk forward with no cover, due to facing, terrain and LoS requirements. I think that will limit quite a deal your movement and target choices in addition to increase your exposure. Still, will that work? I think so, but only because the game is very easy.

And about looking for efficiency or playstyles I'm not saying they're not going to be fun. On the contrary, I think they'll be quite a bit, and for sure I'll play with them, with assaults too, even if they're pretty bad. And that's because while not reliable you'll probably be able to achieve huge successes with them from time to time (like walking through a road for a massive one-hit kill). But you said they seem kinda OP and I disagree with that, at least if we're talking about heavies/assaults.

For lights I think they'll probably be very good, perhaps even OP, because for those you don't have so many choices, you just can't equip as many weapons as you may for much heavier mechs, and you can have so much movement speed that you can get rid of the JJs and still have very decent mobility, more evasion than mitigation based defense. And not having so much available weight makes a single weapon with big damage and high heat setup with breaching very attractive. All of that fits them a lot better than heavies/assaults, who can't easily generate a lot of eva pips, can already pack a lot of weaponry and become sluggish the walking through slowing terrain.

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

But you said they seem kinda OP and I disagree with that, at least if we're talking about heavies/assaults.

I was just talking about the Warhammer iirc. Still, the COIL-L is what, 4 tons? And instead of generating half it's dmg as heat, it will be only 40% on the WHM. That's a decent energy weapon, even if you don't max out movement it is pretty strong when you compare it to the PPC or LL. Even without moving at all, just doing standard dmg, it's kind of a LL. And if you use the medium COILs, you might miss cover, yes. But considering the possible dmg output, using your morale on dmg-reduction instead of called shot and still devestate. Sure, not the dmg-potential you get from using faster mechs, but given the WHM's quirk, COILs might work extremely well here.

And even if you take another heavy without the quirk, unless you run low on critical slots, 2-3 evasion is all you need imo to make the COIL-L the superior choice to the LL. And to the PPC, but everything but the AC2 is superior to the PPC

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I was just talking about the Warhammer iirc. Still, the COIL-L is what, 4 tons? And instead of generating half it's dmg as heat, it will be only 40% on the WHM. That's a decent energy weapon, even if you don't max out movement it is pretty strong when you compare it to the PPC or LL. Even without moving at all, just doing standard dmg, it's kind of a LL. And if you use the medium COILs, you might miss cover, yes. But considering the possible dmg output, using your morale on dmg-reduction instead of called shot and still devestate. Sure, not the dmg-potential you get from using faster mechs, but given the WHM's quirk, COILs might work extremely well here.

And even if you take another heavy without the quirk, unless you run low on critical slots, 2-3 evasion is all you need imo to make the COIL-L the superior choice to the LL. And to the PPC, but everything but the AC2 is superior to the PPC

Excellent points, Good Sir.

COIL Weapons will be powerful, but take some refined tactics and a solid Scheme of Maneuver to employ for maximum advantage. :bow:

And just like the AC20 now, when a COIL-Large misses in Combat... and all that HEAT floods my Mech... it is going to bring with it that OH-SO-BattleTech-feeling of “Darn these dice anyways!!!” : )

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

Yeah, I see a new "battletech moment" coming up. You ran like hell to get that maxed COIL shot, miss, shut down and get blown to pieces ;D

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Yeah, I see a new "battletech moment" coming up. You ran like hell to get that maxed COIL shot, miss, shut down and get blown to pieces ;D

Yeah, especially so if I’m caught out in the open trying to get “Just One More PURPLE Chevron!”

 

[Doctor Machete]

I was just talking about the Warhammer iirc. Still, the COIL-L is what, 4 tons? And instead of generating half it's dmg as heat, it will be only 40% on the WHM. That's a decent energy weapon, even if you don't max out movement it is pretty strong when you compare it to the PPC or LL. Even without moving at all, just doing standard dmg, it's kind of a LL. And if you use the medium COILs, you might miss cover, yes. But considering the possible dmg output, using your morale on dmg-reduction instead of called shot and still devestate. Sure, not the dmg-potential you get from using faster mechs, but given the WHM's quirk, COILs might work extremely well here.

And even if you take another heavy without the quirk, unless you run low on critical slots, 2-3 evasion is all you need imo to make the COIL-L the superior choice to the LL. And to the PPC, but everything but the AC2 is superior to the PPC

So what setup would you suggest for the WARH?. I don't have into account hardpoint location restrictions for this mech yet but I have some ideas (I'm assuming same available weight as the regular Black Knight):
1) - 3COIL-L 3TEX++ 5DHS 0JJ RF++ @ 3 EVA, 12t armor 378/36 alpha (dmg/heat)
2) - 1AC20+++ 1COIL-L 3DHS 3JJ RF++, 14t armor @ 3 EVA, 246/39 alpha.
3) - 1AC10++ 1COIL-L 7DHS 3JJ RF++, 14t armor @ 4 EVA, 238/24 alpha.
4) - 4LL+++ 4DHS 3JJ RF++, 14t armor @ 0 EVA, 240/18 alpha.
** Edit: Replaced 42.5t weight with 41t and updated armor accordingly **

For me, at first glance 2 and 3 don't look very good, and in any case having the +20% energy damage quirk a big ballistic weapon would be a waste. IMO the Coil-L as secondary weapon concept doesn't work for them even when said weapon has +20% damage. The 4) option is nothing fancy as far as the new weapons go but it works, and very well. You can solo easily most non timed 5 skull missions with it for sure.

Now the interesting part, which is 1). No doubt is a fun setup, it can do a lot of damage but it lacks a lot of flexibility. I don't think I could solo five skull missions due to the lack of JJs, not consistently and maybe not at all, although for sure in some situations it will be way better if you have other mechs as support. This is mostly a one trick pony, a killer but nothing else. Not a finisher (you want him to deal the gross -or all- of the damage), not a spotter, not a tank or a bodyguard, while 4) can do any of those jobs from decently to very well (perhaps not a decent tank against assaults but fine against other heavies). That would be my analysis, do you agree? what changes would you make to it, if any?.

Of course this may be not fair because we don't know how +/++ variants are going to be, If they went as far as to decrease -10%/-20% heat for +/++ then that could be a game changer but I'd guess they'll consist in two of -slots, +acc and -%heat (but not a lot), because with other lostech weapons the devs have been very conservative, although on the other side they weren't in DLCs so I think there is a small chance for some huge bonuses.
** Edit: confirmed in the stream COILs have not +/++ variants **

An alternate version with Coil-M could be this:
- 4COIL-M 3TEX++ 4DHS 0JJ COMMS++ @ 3EVA, 14.5t armor 360/38 alpha
... but I think we can agree is not nearly on the same level as 1)

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

That would be my analysis, do you agree? what changes would you make to it, if any?.

First, I really like how you back up your points with calculations, it's a good discussion! Thanks!

Concerning your loadouts, aren't they all 1/2 a ton too heavy? Or did I get my numbers wrong? I used smurfy's to check, but anyway, half a ton doesn't really make that much of a difference.
Another point: Doesn't the first evasion chevron count as the first multiplier? Or does a COIL at 1 EVA deal as much dmg as a COIL at 0? Not that it matters too much, because I don't really plan on maxing out the COIL in the builds here, it's just for clarification because I didn't really get what HBS said about it. But if the first one counts, there wouldn't be much need to move far AT ALL

Now, back to topic. For the 41 tons the WHM can mount, I was thinking more like this:
The freaky version is: 4 COIL-L + 5DHS + 2TEX++ + 12tons of armor - you don't have to move far to make a ton of dmg. At 1-2 (depending on how chevrons are counted, see above) evasion you already deal 308dmg for 30 heat, at 2-3 evasion it's 504 dmg for 75 heat, so you need some guts to pull it off. If you move any further, you will either need to shut down and take internal dmg or switch off weapons. 678dmg for 119 overheat is just too much ;D
Not really a reliable build, not actually the most efficient, but something you COULD use at arctic environments.

The realistic version is a modification of your LL boat: Just drop 2 LLs for COILs and 2 more DHS or a normal TEX. Yeah, you lose 36 damage when you not move or use your JJs, which kinda sucks but isn't too bad. But when you move, you gain a huge boost and still sink a decent amount of heat. I think this is maybe the most viable build for COILs, boating won't really work too well unless you want a one-shot-shutdown-pony.
Just some alphastrike-calculation with the 6DHS: At the first multiplier, it's 288 dmg for 36 heat, at the second it's 372 for 75 heat. Still hot, but you can switch off your LLs now and just deal pinpoint-damage if you want to. And if you move any further, you just might want to fire a single COIL for a massive 168dmg blow, generating 4(!) heat. Or both, or whatever you like ;D

Maybe a TEX is more effective here, but I don't want to do all the calculations now. Maybe I need a new excel-file ;D But nevertheless, this looks like a viable AND flexible build to me.

But I need to correct myself: COILs don't look OP on the warhammer. Maybe the Warhammer is one of the few heavy mechs that can actually make the COIL work effectively, without being fast. Thanks for your input again!



Edit: Just for the sake of completeness: 3LLs, 1 COIL-L, 5DHS, 3JJs might be even better: Keep all the benefits from the LL build, but get a single weapon able to deal massive damage if needed

Edit2: Just watched the latest stream, looks like the first chevron doesn't count for dmg. Not that it makes any difference for this here

 

[Jade_Rook]

Don't forget that both COILS and DHS use a lot of slots. A COIL-L is 8 slots, which is a full arm or all but two on a side torso. No space to mount a 3 slot DHS in the same spot as a COIL-L.

 

[Doctor Machete]

First, I really like how you back up your points with calculations, it's a good discussion! Thanks!

Well, I love minmaxing, and with Heavy Metal I'll have to update my planner and chance calculator XDDD

Concerning your loadouts, aren't they all 1/2 a ton too heavy? Or did I get my numbers wrong? I used smurfy's to check, but anyway, half a ton doesn't really make that much of a difference.
Another point: Doesn't the first evasion chevron count as the first multiplier? Or does a COIL at 1 EVA deal as much dmg as a COIL at 0? Not that it matters too much, because I don't really plan on maxing out the COIL in the builds here, it's just for clarification because I didn't really get what HBS said about it. But if the first one counts, there wouldn't be much need to move far AT ALL

My above setups are a bit rough. The damage and heat values are on point I think, and I take into account crit slots but not their location, only their total volume. And I also don't account for the volume and weight of the +20% energy quirk, so the armor value is very likely off to some degree because it's the available weight after substracting equipment and weapons. I'll update the above weights to reflect the WARH has 41t and not 42.5.

Now, back to topic. For the 41 tons the WHM can mount, I was thinking more like this:
The freaky version is: 4 COIL-L + 5DHS + 2TEX++ + 12tons of armor - you don't have to move far to make a ton of dmg. At 1-2 (depending on how chevrons are counted, see above) evasion you already deal 308dmg for 30 heat, at 2-3 evasion it's 504 dmg for 75 heat, so you need some guts to pull it off. If you move any further, you will either need to shut down and take internal dmg or switch off weapons. 678dmg for 119 overheat is just too much ;D
Not really a reliable build, not actually the most efficient, but something you COULD use at arctic environments.

For the above, due to how Sure Footing works I've been assuming that if you change your facing you moved (a move action) but you didn't sprint or jump, so in principle you could use it. But maybe that's not the case and you actually need to walk, at least a bit. But anyway that's irrelevant to my main point, which is that you can't jump + fire.

Now, back to topic. For the 41 tons the WHM can mount, I was thinking more like this:
The freaky version is: 4 COIL-L + 5DHS + 2TEX++ + 12tons of armor - you don't have to move far to make a ton of dmg. At 1-2 (depending on how chevrons are counted, see above) evasion you already deal 308dmg for 30 heat, at 2-3 evasion it's 504 dmg for 75 heat, so you need some guts to pull it off. If you move any further, you will either need to shut down and take internal dmg or switch off weapons. 678dmg for 119 overheat is just too much ;D
Not really a reliable build, not actually the most efficient, but something you COULD use at arctic environments.

For 4xCOIL-L 2xTEX++ 5xDHS:
- @ 2 EVA: 336/44 heat
- @ 3 EVA: 504/100 heat
- @ 4 EVA: 672/152 heat
...although it doesn't fit, I'll replace 4xDHS with an extra TEX++ (4xCOIL-L 3xTEX++ 1xDHS):
- @ 2 EVA: 336/48 heat
- @ 3 EVA: 504/92 heat
- @ 4 EVA: 672/136 heat
This now it's more efficient but the recovery after the spike will be slower due to only one DHS.

Let's see the @3 EVA, each COIL-L does 126 damage --> generates 63 heat, so total heat is (RoundedDown(63*0.8*0.8*0.8)) * 4 coils = 128 heat before cooling. After cooling it's 128 - 30 (internal HS) - 6 (DHS) = 92 alpha heat.

In Polar (and assuming the two TEX++ variant, which is not feasible):
- @ 2 EVA: 336/32 heat
- @ 3 EVA: 504/88 heat
- @ 4 EVA: 672/140 heat
Not a big difference, because eight tons of cooling are for the 2xTEX++ and these do not benefit from colder climates, and also because the coldest climates are not as cold as hot are the hottest biomes. And for the 3xTEX++ and only 1xDHS this will be much worse For the 3xTEX++ variant, although TEX don't benefit from cooler climantes, with 252 raw heat generated they're still better in this case, slightly better heatsink performance is not enough to compensate, and anyway 2xTEX++ loadout doesnt fit, as stated before.
**Edit: clarify this is referring to the 2xTEX++ loadout **

For me it doesn't look very good. Sure, very nice for epic kills but not really practical most of the time unless you already have the upper hand. You could say that being a high risk high reward it could turn the tides with one shot killings against very hard targets, but I don't think that's the case. Because on the long run you can easily be surpassed in damage by the "modest" 4xLL+++, just because it has JJs and doesn't need a lot of preparation. It can change target way more easily, avoid damage way more easily (LoS control), assist other mechs, arrive one or more turns faster to kill a target or fire more times in a row if needed. And in a cooler climate he will be able to jump even more often while your setup will be able essentially to punch harder and a tiny bit more.

The realistic version is a modification of your LL boat: Just drop 2 LLs for COILs and 2 more DHS or a normal TEX. Yeah, you lose 36 damage when you not move or use your JJs, which kinda sucks but isn't too bad. But when you move, you gain a huge boost and still sink a decent amount of heat. I think this is maybe the most viable build for COILs, boating won't really work too well unless you want a one-shot-shutdown-pony.

If I do that I lose half the damage when jumping, from 240 to 120, which is huge, it actually is too bad. And when alpha it's:
- 4xDHS TEX @ 1 EVA: 204/14 heat
- 4xDHS TEX @ 2 EVA: 288/52 heat
- 4xDHS TEX @ 3 EVA: 372/90 heat
- 4xDHS TEX @ 4 EVA: 456/128 heat

- 6xDHS @ 1 EVA: 204/12 heat
- 6xDHS @ 2 EVA: 288/54 heat
- 6xDHS @ 3 EVA: 372/96 heat
- 6xDHS @ 4 EVA: 456/138 heat

I don't see the benefit besides very niche situations. The 1 & 2 eva are underwhelming for a supposed upgrade, and with the other EVA values I lose half of reliable damage for a bigger spike once in a while when I'm in a very safe spot from where I can move to get 3 or 4 EVA. Now jump + alpha to kill a vehicle (for example) becomes a LOT more difficult (or impossible for the hardest ones). I'd rather go full COIL-L than mix both weapons, at least I can enable/disable some of the four coils depending on how much I want to move. Here I only have two of them to play with and that only when not jumping. If I'm going to use Coils, the JJs are much of a hindrance when you really want is more cooling.

If you're going to be a one trick pony then better get really good at it. The 3xCOIL-L is very limited but it does what is expected very well, which is to punch very very hard from time to time when you have a good position. Having three COIL-L generates much more heat and more feasible to stack several TEX++ by fully removing the LLs and JJs. He can be the star of the team but he needs others to work for him so he doesn't get into too much unexpected trouble.

The mixed setup doesn't look good to me, for example at 3 EVA from 378/36 (3xCOIL-L) to 372/90 (mixed). The COILs don't help you when you're pressed, when you need to maximize CHEVs for avoidance and alpha for full expect after a jump. They only help you when you don't need any help or you're hopeless and you're going to die in a blaze of glory.

Just some alphastrike-calculation with the 6DHS: At the first multiplier, it's 288 dmg for 36 heat, at the second it's 372 for 75 heat. Still hot, but you can switch off your LLs now and just deal pinpoint-damage if you want to. And if you move any further, you just might want to fire a single COIL for a massive 168dmg blow, generating 4(!) heat. Or both, or whatever you like ;D

With the first multiplier you do 35dmg * 1 EVA * 2 COILs * 1.2 (+20% energy) + 2x60 (LLs, +20% energy included)= 84 + 120 = 204 dmg, not 288. Heat is 42 (coil) + 36 (LLs) - 30 (Internal) - 6x6 = 78 - 66 = 12 heat

But I need to correct myself: COILs don't look OP on the warhammer. Maybe the Warhammer is one of the few heavy mechs that can actually make the COIL work effectively, without being fast. Thanks for your input again!

I really don't think they're meant for heavier mechs, and devs seems they imply that (if not explicitely) in the streams. Still, I think they can work and be viable, just not a good weapon in general for those mechs.

Don't forget that both COILS and DHS use a lot of slots. A COIL-L is 8 slots, which is a full arm or all but two on a side torso. No space to mount a 3 slot DHS in the same spot as a COIL-L.

I don't have into account the WARH quirk component and also removed hardpoint restrictions (weapons can go anywhere) but I don't think that does matter much for the purpose of this discussion.

Spoiler