War with the USA

[Porkman]

Silly stuff

Look up the USS Panay, there was no way the US was ever going to be fine with what Japan was doing and there was no way that the Japanese army on the ground in Asia wasn't going to poke the US, regardless of what cooler heads in the Japanese foreign ministry wanted.

 

[scroggin]

How about a little bit more of the unexpected in HOI4. I do want WWII to occur which includes America being at war with Germany at some stage. Hitlers policy of unrestricted submarine warfare could have brought the USA into the war sooner, especially if some prominent people had taken a stand of outrage at Germany sinking American merchant ships. If Germany had not declared war on The USA there was a chance that the USA would have delayed joining the war against Germany or given higher priority the the Asian campaign. How about having a little bit more of the unexpected just to make the game more interesting? Or will everyone just quit and start again from a savegame if they don't get the outcome that they want.

 

[war_biscuit]

The idea of Germany having an option to DOW or not is interesting, and I like the idea. Perhaps other things can be added to adjust for it. For example, if Germany doesn't DOW on the USA, the USA can get other effects from the decision that could make it more likely for the AI USA to DOW on Germany.

Points about it being a 'no-brainer' for a player controlled Germany to not DOW on the USA are valid, as are points about it being very non-historical. However, that's selective. Technically, Germany, be it player or AI controlled, does do other major non historical actions that are clearly the 'correct' action and fall into the 'no-brainer' category. Should Germany be restricted on converting to a total war economy until the later years of the war? Should Germany be restricted on the Eastern Front to the foolish, delusional, and generally crazy Hitler policies of no retreat and removal of commanders?

 

[gregor_mendel]

WW II WAS a clash of political movements using nations and their armies to achieve domination. Military coups were common in WW II. It was NOT a game of one nation goes to war with one other nation and has a focus in military tactics on one field of battle.

Those political movements operated within many nations.

We have never seen a war like that before or after that time when political movements dominated the planet and fought each other for survival. Nations were only the tools for those movements.

You're obviously correct but I'm afraid that falls a bit out of the scope of HoI. What would be absolutely brilliant, however, would be for someone at PDS to have the balls to create a HoI game with full Victoria political/economic aspects. Let's just hope somebody makes that game before I retire.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

I agree that if given the choice of war with the USA the best course for Germany is to avoid it. But there's one thing people seem to be missing - the effect it would have on Japan. If it had launched Pearl Harbour and the European Axis stayed neutral, the USA could have focused all its efforts against them, potentially crushing Japan by 1942/43. By rejecting war with the USA, the Germany player is effectively allowing, in a way, the USA to 'divide and conquer'.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

I kinda agree with some of the assumptions here...

1. I agree that no matter what USA would have ended up in the war against Germany eventually anyway.
2. Due to USA entering war, Germany was the bigger threat, requiring about 66% of US resources (historically), so USA would crush Japan quite fast and easily.

Due to this I actually think its in Germany's best interest to declare war on USA as soon as Japan declares war on USA, otherwise the troops that USSR and UK have stationed in Siberia/India/Phillipines/ etc can be freed up to fight Germany much quicker and thus lose the war much quicker for Germany.

It also means if its anything like HOI3, that Great Britain will never surrender because you could never control enough victory points in Europe and Africa alone, you need Japan to take out victory nodes. This doesn't really matter though because from what I remember when a member surrenders in HOI3, the remaining naval ships are transferred to the next leader, which would be USA, the only thing that gets killed is army units and air force.

Edit: This was my strategy in HOI3 and HOI2, to draw as much naval units into the atlantic sinking as many of them as possible, and continuing the massive submarine blockade of Great Britain. This frees Japans Navy quite a lot.

 

[Bullfrog]

Hitler enjoyed the fantasy that Japan might declare war on the Soviets, and thereby relieve the pressure the German forces were facing in late '41. His DOW on the US was in part a hope that Japan would reciprocate and finally get in the war against the USSR.

 

[scroggin]

The idea of Germany having an option to DOW or not is interesting, and I like the idea. Perhaps other things can be added to adjust for it. For example, if Germany doesn't DOW on the USA, the USA can get other effects from the decision that could make it more likely for the AI USA to DOW on Germany.

Definitely..... it shouldn't be about whether Germany and the USA end up at war at war, it should be about when. I do think that having to plan for the unexpected will make the game more interesting and more realistic. How would we change the way we plan a campaign against Russia if we knew that there was a 20% chance the USA would declare war early and a smaller scale "Normandy" would occur in 1942?
If the USA came into the war early it would have weaker popular support than a reaction to pearl harbour, so they should be nerfed by lower laws.

 

[scroggin]

Hitler enjoyed the fantasy that Japan might declare war on the Soviets, and thereby relieve the pressure the German forces were facing in late '41. His DOW on the US was in part a hope that Japan would reciprocate and finally get in the war against the USSR.

The Soviets also knew that with Germanys support for japan they could also put pressure on Japan to attack Russia. This forced Russia to keep more of their troops in Siberia regardless of what Japan actually did.

 

[vertinox]

People seem to be missing the elephant in the room...

If you are playing Japan in HoI3, there is no need to declare war on the USA.

Though, I think the USA eventually declares war on Japan which is odd.

 

[unmerged(12131)]

People seem to be missing the elephant in the room...

If you are playing Japan in HoI3, there is no need to declare war on the USA.

Though, I think the USA eventually declares war on Japan which is odd.

The USA implemented sanctions on Japan in July, 1941, which blocked all oil, iron, wheat and tin from reaching Japan. Those sanctions were a defacto Declaration of War. At that moment Japan started assembling fleets to attack all over the Pacific.

If those sanctions were not implemented, Japan would have confined their war to China, only, and perhaps attacked the Soviet Union as well. They had already fought a war with the Soviet Union a year before and Zhukov held the line and an armistice was implemented.

Those sanctions should be part of HOI 4 in the game and the US should make the decision whether to impose them or not.

 

[vertinox]

The USA implemented sanctions on Japan in July, 1941, which blocked all oil, iron, wheat and tin from reaching Japan. Those sanctions were a defacto Declaration of War. At that moment Japan started assembling fleets to attack all over the Pacific.

If those sanctions were not implemented, Japan would have confined their war to China, only, and perhaps attacked the Soviet Union as well. They had already fought a war with the Soviet Union a year before and Zhukov held the line and an armistice was implemented.

Those sanctions should be part of HOI 4 in the game and the US should make the decision whether to impose them or not.

Well in theory Japan could just declare war on the Dutch and take their oil in Indonesia. The reality is that if you declare war on the USA, you still don't get their oil and trade.

Even if you take their territories in the Pacific, they don't produce oil so its pretty much useless to the war effort. Its unlikely that you'll occupy Texas as Japan.

So if I am playing Japan, I will just ignore the USA and trade with the Soviets if possible. There is nothing to be gained by fighting the USA unless I've run out of targets in China, overrun India and Austrialia, and see to it that the Soviets have been defeated by Germans.

Then I'll think about attacking the USA.

 

[Bullfrog]

The USA implemented sanctions on Japan in July, 1941, which blocked all oil, iron, wheat and tin from reaching Japan. Those sanctions were a defacto Declaration of War. At that moment Japan started assembling fleets to attack all over the Pacific.

If those sanctions were not implemented, Japan would have confined their war to China, only, and perhaps attacked the Soviet Union as well. They had already fought a war with the Soviet Union a year before and Zhukov held the line and an armistice was implemented.

Those sanctions should be part of HOI 4 in the game and the US should make the decision whether to impose them or not.

But the embargo was enacted after the Japanese occupied French Indochina, not because of the continuing war in China. The fatal mistake by the US was to demand that Japan not only pull out of Southeast Asia, but cease the war in China too. Had the embargo been limited to enforcing against only the Japanese drive south, it may have been less of an embarrassment and perhaps not a prelude to war on Japan's part.

The US did give an ultimatum to the Japanese that could only result in war, but I'm not sure it was entirely a purposeful defacto DOW. I believe it was done in ignorance of the Japanese national pride and honor, and in the best interests of the defeated Dutch and French, as well as Britain. The European Allies needed the resources flowing out of their Southeast Asian colonies to continue the war with Germany. Roosevelt knew this and was hoping to stem the tide. Perhaps he included cessation of the war in China in the demands because of US interests in that nation, in order to appear more concerned with US interests than European interests. For he was still balancing his actions against a domestic apathy for the "European" war.

 

[Secret Master]

Well in theory Japan could just declare war on the Dutch and take their oil in Indonesia. The reality is that if you declare war on the USA, you still don't get their oil and trade.

Even if you take their territories in the Pacific, they don't produce oil so its pretty much useless to the war effort. Its unlikely that you'll occupy Texas as Japan.

So if I am playing Japan, I will just ignore the USA and trade with the Soviets if possible. There is nothing to be gained by fighting the USA unless I've run out of targets in China, overrun India and Austrialia, and see to it that the Soviets have been defeated by Germans.

Then I'll think about attacking the USA.

I've played HOI3 that way before. It's not quite as exciting as trying to take the USA down.

Of course, it's not nearly as fun as invading Italy and Germany as Japan without joining any faction and telling both the Allies and COMINTERN that they are total scrubs for not being able to defeat the Axis.

 

[Bullfrog]

People seem to be missing the elephant in the room...

If you are playing Japan in HoI3, there is no need to declare war on the USA.

Though, I think the USA eventually declares war on Japan which is odd.

If you, as the JAP player, occupy French Indochina and get the US embargo, it should mean (in-game) that your resources will run out soon. No, you could just go south and take the Dutch East Indies and British colonies, without attacking the US, to get your oil. But if you do, I think the US should get a neutrality loss and be ever more willing to go to war, even if that may not have been the case in a real life scenario.

Though the Japanese response to the embargo was to just seize more of French Indochina, and the US did nothing. If you play your cards right in the game, I think avoiding war with the US could be possible even with an embargo in place. But after the US finishes the inevitable war with Germany, they'll come knocking at your door very much stronger than in late '41.

 

[EmperorTojo]

The outside world was already pretty upset with Japan messing around in China but didn't have any large balls to do more than protest when it began, and were generally shamed (shamefur dispray) by Japan who didn't give many shits. I mean really, their government ignored every meeting concerning the Sino-Japanese war and possible effort to end hostility. Their line of thinking was pretty much that this is a private issue between Japan and China. I like to think Japan's invasion of Indochina (Vichy controlled, one could point out) was just an easy casus belli for USA and a second chance to man up on the real issue: the war in China. Japan had provoked USA years earlier. Obviously the sanctions pushed the little island country to do some pretty drastic measures. I'm still amazed that Pearl Harbor caught the Americans by surprise (which maybe it didn't.. who knows. Read too many contradicting theories.)

 

[Porkman]

The USA implemented sanctions on Japan in July, 1941, which blocked all oil, iron, wheat and tin from reaching Japan. Those sanctions were a defacto Declaration of War. At that moment Japan started assembling fleets to attack all over the Pacific.

If those sanctions were not implemented, Japan would have confined their war to China, only, and perhaps attacked the Soviet Union as well. They had already fought a war with the Soviet Union a year before and Zhukov held the line and an armistice was implemented.

Those sanctions should be part of HOI 4 in the game and the US should make the decision whether to impose them or not.

The US sanctions were not a de facto declaration of war and Japan had already killed US personnel and naval assets in China. Japan was in clear violation of the Nine Powers treaty which governed China and the US embargoing Japan was the least hostile thing that they should have done.

You know how everyone laments how Europe didn't stand up to Hitler earlier? Well in this case, the US did stand up to Japan and people are saying that they shouldn't have.

Japan didn't have a "right" to launch a private war against China. The fact that everyone else in the world was too chickenshit to do anything about Japanese aggression doesn't make the US wrong for responding to it.

 

[Poh]

I dont think theres anything wrong with US standing up to Japan however the interesting thing is, why now? what did they do when Japan attacked Manchukuo? (i must say i dont know if/how severe sanctions they implemented) On the other hand taken into account the sanctions the US implemented and how the japanese honor "system" works i do believe they gave the japanese very little possibility of anything else than war.

EDIT: even today we still see how we can be deaf to eachothers cultures and how what we do leads to a very different outcome only because we did not take into account how the other culture react to our actions. But expected them to react as we would have done.

 

[Porkman]

I dont think theres anything wrong with US standing up to Japan however the interesting thing is, why now? what did they do when Japan attacked Manchukuo? (i must say i dont know if/how severe sanctions they implemented) On the other hand taken into account the sanctions the US implemented and how the japanese honor "system" works i do believe they gave the japanese very little possibility of anything else than war.

EDIT: even today we still see how we can be deaf to eachothers cultures and how what we do leads to a very different outcome only because we did not take into account how the other culture react to our actions. But expected them to react as we would have done.

That might be true, but was there any non war alternative that wouldn't leave Japan in control of China?

 

[misterbean]

The league Of Nations tried to deal with the Manchukuo invasion, but failed.

In-game, I believe that a US embargo means that they are about 5 points away from being able to join a faction. A successful invasion of Australia and/or New Zealand, for instance, might be enough to send them over the edge. In that respect, a Japanese player choosing to DoW the US after an embargo, could be seen as just being proactive.
In real life, I'm not sure it as cut and dry.