War with the USA

[Secret Master]

There were numerous political forces in the USA which were very anti-British and pro-German. Charles Lindbergh and the America First group should be noted. Most Americans did not want to die for the Imperial powers of Britain and France.

Well, you can do that now in HOI3. Germany can support Lindbergh for president through spies, and use diplomatic influence to keep the USA out of the war. Between ideological drift and German influence, the US will not move to that end of the triangle.

But you can't let Japan join the Axis, because they will still attack an isolationist USA, bringing them into the war.

 

[unmerged(12131)]

If one really analyzes WW II, it was won by the Liberal Democratic Movement based in the USA and the Communist Movement based in Russia. The Imperial Movement based in England and France lost and the Nazi Movement based in Germany lost. The Royalist Movement based in Central Europe also lost.

 

[208]

Another possibility for the game is for the player to assume a political leadership rather than a nation's leadership. Thus, the player could play as leader of the following movements: Liberal, Conservative, Nazi, Communist, Imperialist, Socialist, Royalist, etc. The player's goal would be to achieve world domination for his political movement with the nations being only the tools to be dominated and then used to expand power.

That sounds more like a mid-20th century political simulator than a WW2 game.

 

[unmerged(12131)]

That sounds more like a mid-20th century political simulator than a WW2 game.

WW II WAS a clash of political movements using nations and their armies to achieve domination. Military coups were common in WW II. It was NOT a game of one nation goes to war with one other nation and has a focus in military tactics on one field of battle.

Those political movements operated within many nations.

We have never seen a war like that before or after that time when political movements dominated the planet and fought each other for survival. Nations were only the tools for those movements.

 

[seattle]

Unfortunately in HoI you could never evade war with the US as Germany.
In real history, 70% of the senate was against joining the war on Britain's side before Germany dow'ed the US. Even after Pearl Harbour, Roosevelt only had the mandate to wage war on Japan, not Germany! It's time that HoI finally adequately simulates that sentiment. The American public didn't want to go to war!!!

The German player should get an event after Pearl Harbour: a) dow USA, b) f*** Japan

 

[misterbean]

Military coups were common in WW II.

Name one that seriously impacted conduct of the war, and Italy doesn't count, since that was basically the king of Italy sacking and imprisoning his PM.

 

[podcat]

Unfortunately in HoI you could never evade war with the US as Germany.
In real history, 70% of the senate was against joining the war on Britain's side before Germany dow'ed the US. Even after Pearl Harbour, Roosevelt only had the mandate to wage war on Japan, not Germany! It's time that HoI finally adequately simulates that sentiment. The American public didn't want to go to war!!!

The German player should get an event after Pearl Harbour: a) dow USA, b) f*** Japan

and why would they ever pick a?

 

[dizzle3]

any why would they ever pick a?

Real men pick a

 

[208]

WW II WAS a clash of political movements using nations and their armies to achieve domination. Military coups were common in WW II. It was NOT a game of one nation goes to war with one other nation and has a focus in military tactics on one field of battle.

Those political movements operated within many nations.

We have never seen a war like that before or after that time when political movements dominated the planet and fought each other for survival. Nations were only the tools for those movements.

My point was though if you want a game about that, it goes way beyond the scope of a wargame.

 

[Klausewitz]

any why would they ever pick a?

You might want to ask Adolf Hitler, Führer des Großdeutschen Reichs, the same question.

 

[seattle]

any why would they ever pick a?

Hitler was batsh*t crazy, so he picked a)
Your problem as the developer is to simulate this situation in a way that is both plausible and sound in terms of gameplay. Unfortunately it's one of those buggers that seem like a lose-lose situation.

I'm just saying that an automatic war entry against Germany after Pearl Harbour is completely unrealistic and hence has to be dealt with. The German a.i. could act historical and simply dow the US. The player has to be enticed to do so. The cheapest solution would be a massive dissent hit for picking b), more creative solutions can be discussed here. That is, if it is even up for debate.

 

[SFSLovenought]

Name one that seriously impacted conduct of the war, and Italy doesn't count, since that was basically the king of Italy sacking and imprisoning his PM.

Yugoslavia?
The kidnapping of Chiang Kai Shek was sort of like a coup (In the sense they changed the countries direction by force)
Romania changing sides.
Operation Panzerfaust was an external coup.
Bulgaria changing sides.
The formation of Vichy has been described as a coup to me once.

Those are just off the top of my head.

 

[Secret Master]

Unfortunately in HoI you could never evade war with the US as Germany.

Yes, you could. It was a likely outcome if you followed a specific set of actions. Just do the following.

1) Don't invite Japan into the Axis.
2) Use diplomatic influence to keep the USA out of the Allied corner of the diplomatic triangle.
3) Elect Lindbergh president so that ideological drift would push the USA away from both the Allies and COMINTERN.
4) Don't DOW the USA or any nation the USA is currently protecting.

How much easier could it be?

any why would they ever pick a?

Because Axis wargoals require occupying or annexing territories held by either the USA or her allies?

You are right, though, that keeping the USA out of the war is easy mode for Germany. You just need an incentive to encourage Axis designs on America.

 

[Klausewitz]

Only question is:
Why would the German people, now in War with the UK and the SU be upset if the Führer does not attack the US?
Even more so since the mood was only very slowly shifting against the USA in the propoganda and even slower in the public (Hitler himself had celebrated the USA as the triumph of Aryan blood over Jewish influence).
I think something like the Lusitania or somesuch would be needed allowing the USA to DoW, which makes much more sense even gameplay wise:
The German player has little to gain by attacking the USa then and this could lead to a game of tightrope walking balancing the u-boat war against England against upsetting the USa, while an American player will need to find a reason to get his isolationist country to attack the Great Evil even though they do not want to.

 

[unmerged(12131)]

My point was though if you want a game about that, it goes way beyond the scope of a wargame.

HOI 4 SHOULD go beyond the scope of a "war game." I had purchased other Paradox games in the past and only really liked Diplomacy. The others turned me off. For specific war game tactics and development I only play Civilization 5.

Making HOI 4 about the political movements fighting for survival would change the nature of the game and emphasize its strategic potential. I've never regarded Paradox games as having good tactical potential and have given up on them in that area of gaming. The Paradox game protocols would be especially well suited to a simulation of competing political movements - NOT individual nations.

However, emphasizing the HEARTS of the political movements in contention in the 1930's and 1940's would make HOI 4 unique among war games. I do not know of any like that political movement emphasis in existence now. The specific natures of those political movements could be OMITTED since they are not relevant to the domination game and would offend many potential customers. Just using the names and power grabs would be enough.

Someone mentioned a question of coups in WW II. Germany had a major coup which failed in 1944. Japan had successful coups before WW II, one attempted during WW II and one attempted at the very end. The UK Parliament considered dumping Churchill in 1941 and 1942 but failed in its attempts. Prior to WW II Huey Long of Louisiana was considering a run against Roosevelt in 1936 but was assassinated before he could attempt it. Long was Governor of Louisiana and had German ships refuel in New Orleans on a regular basis. He was friendly to Hitler. Mussolini and Hitler both came to power using strong arm methods and Mussolini was overthrown in a coup. The Kremlin almost used a coup to overthrow Stalin when Barbarossa started and Stalin had gone into a massive depression and silence. Beria held a gun to Stalin's head to make him address the nation after the first disastrous losses. After Stalin died after WW II was over the Kremlin had Beria executed immediately after Stalin's death.

 

[podcat]

HOI 4 SHOULD go beyond the scope of a "war game." I had purchased other Paradox games in the past and only really liked Diplomacy. The others turned me off. For specific war game tactics and development I only play Civilization 5.

Sounds like Victoria II would be a game for you. Have you tried it?

 

[zmarcos]

Sounds like Victoria II would be a game for you. Have you tried it?

I want to try Victoria III

 

[Rubidium]

An interesting alternate history option for the game to allow would be for Joe Kennedy to return to the USA and beat Franklin Roosevelt for the Presidency in 1940.

There were numerous political forces in the USA which were very anti-British and pro-German. Charles Lindbergh and the America First group should be noted. Most Americans did not want to die for the Imperial powers of Britain and France. Fulton Lewis, Junior, was a noted radio commentator at the time with a huge audience and favored such an outcome. The Chicago Tribune headed by William Randolph Hearst tended in that direction as well.

If Joe Kennedy had won as President in 1940, its even possible that the US would have entered the war on Germany's side and backed Japan in their bid to end colonialism and communism in Asia.

In fact during the late 1920's under President Herbert Hoover War Plan Red was developed for the US to occupy and annex Canada and ally with Japan to seize British possessions in the Pacific in a joint operation.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Popular sentiment was very much pro-British and anti-German; Hitler's moves had alienated just about everyone. The difference was that most of the America Firsters were pro-neutrality, which is very different. Note that historically, the actual Republican nominee in 1940 was an active interventionist. Nobody wanted to enter the war on Germany's side; even the most sympathetic basically wanted to sit back and fortify the Western hemisphere while Eurasia burned.

Japan and China was a very different kettle of fish. Even most isolationists were more willing to take a hard line with Japan. Remember that the US helped lead international condemnation of the Japanese invasion of Manchuria back during the Hoover administration, so it was very much a bipartisan concern.

There were several reasons for this:
a) There was a very large and active lobby in favor of China (consisting of a mixture of business interests, humanitarians, and missionaries, for whom China had been the go to place for mission work for decades).
b) Preexisting US treaty commitments (unlike Europe, where the shenanigans around the Treaty of Versailles meant that Hitler generally wasn't violating the terms of treaties with the USA, America was a key signatory to many of the treaties guaranteeing an Open Door Policy in China and guaranteeing Chinese independence).
c) The US was concerned about possible threats to its overseas possessions in Asia, especially the Philippines.
d) Racism ("There's no way those Asians could possibly be a match for our boys! We'd beat them and be home for Christmas. Not like those superior Europeans, that would be bloody").

Yes, the US had a War Plan Red, but it was one of a large number of different contingency War Plans, not a statement of American goals (the US today supposedly has a plan for suppressing an attempted coup by the Girl Scouts, that doesn't mean that one is likely).

 

[Sinbuster]

Provided there are options for the player to avoid war with the US, or as the US, that's all that's needed. As Secret Master has shown, it's really quite easy. Why anyone would want to play a game as Germany or Japan without US involvement is a bit mystifying to me because the challenge would be non-existent. I get it, alternative history, blah, blah, blah, but this is clearly a World War II simulator not a 20th century geopolitical simulator. Obviously there were many pivotal events during the period that we armchair historians can debate ad nauseam, but this isn't EU or Vicky, or CK, it's a war game. The goal is total war not diplomacy.

 

[Mashun]

I wonder if Germany should take a relations hit with its allies and puppets if it elected not to join the war against the US. This would provide Germany some in game incentive beyond "real men go to war," and I don't know if it would be that ahistorical.

I understand that legally Germany wasn't obligated to join the war, but I get the feeling that Japan really wanted their support and it might have still made them look bad with their friends if they had hung their ally out to dry.