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Porkman

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If I dont there wont be a game. A realistic WW2 game would suck. Germany needs to have a chance or it wont be any fun.

I know that, I'm just saying that awareness that the historical situation wasn't balanced is better when it comes to designing the balanced final game. Also, it's important to be aware how much Churchill self aggrandized. He didn't lie, really, but I imagine that Roosevelt would be similarly well regarded if he had written an 8 volume history of the war.
 

Beagá

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If I dont there wont be a game. A realistic WW2 game would suck. Germany needs to have a chance or it wont be any fun.

To be honest that´s a trap you deliberatedly put yourselves in. If the game ended in 1964 things would be very different.
 

Darkrenown

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I know that, I'm just saying that awareness that the historical situation wasn't balanced is better when it comes to designing the balanced final game. Also, it's important to be aware how much Churchill self aggrandized. He didn't lie, really, but I imagine that Roosevelt would be similarly well regarded if he had written an 8 volume history of the war.

Generally I think we strike a good balance between history and gameplay. Podcat tends to lean more towards gameplay while I'm more likely to bring up historical examples of why X should/shouldn't be done that way ingame. Then we fight bitterly talk out the best compromise.

I still like Churchill's books though, and it was me that recommended Podcat read them. Most people will paint themselves in the best possible light in their autobiography, but it's still a great look into the top-level war leadership and he includes a lot of primary source stuff in the appendixes such as his memos and the minutes of various meetings.
 

unmerged(12131)

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Generally I think we strike a good balance between history and gameplay. Podcat tends to lean more towards gameplay while I'm more likely to bring up historical examples of why X should/shouldn't be done that way ingame. Then we fight bitterly talk out the best compromise.

I still like Churchill's books though, and it was me that recommended Podcat read them. Most people will paint themselves in the best possible light in their autobiography, but it's still a great look into the top-level war leadership and he includes a lot of primary source stuff in the appendixes such as his memos and the minutes of various meetings.

I recommend the development team read Manchester's three volume (3,000 pages) biography of Churchill - especially the last volume covering WW II. He integrates the Churchill autobiography of WW II with competing sources of criticism from Goebbels' diary to diaries of other members of the British War Cabinet including Labor.

Autobiographies rarely mention defects of their authors while biographies written after the autobiographies usually include contra-sources.
 

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Oh I read plenty of other books too. I'm a little skeptical of the one you mention though, I seem to remember you quoting it saying Churchill bought a gun to kill himself with in 1940, but I may get around to it someday.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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Oh I read plenty of other books too. I'm a little skeptical of the one you mention though, I seem to remember you quoting it saying Churchill bought a gun to kill himself with in 1940, but I may get around to it someday.

If I could recommend a book, I think this one is very well written:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/039331619X...UTF8&colid=343TXGIPO1KC2&coliid=ISUPOFVB3WHZ1

And if you want to research military leadership/army management:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0674006801...UTF8&colid=343TXGIPO1KC2&coliid=IRNGC74PPBWK8
 

unmerged(12131)

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Oh I read plenty of other books too. I'm a little skeptical of the one you mention though, I seem to remember you quoting it saying Churchill bought a gun to kill himself with in 1940, but I may get around to it someday.

Here is another quote from that book:

"Churchill had repeatedly vowed that he would never be taken alive; according to Kathleen Hill, his bodkin was cyanide, which he carried in the cap of his fountain pen."

Manchester, William; Reid, Paul (2012-11-06). The Last Lion: Winston Spencer Churchill: Defender of the Realm, 1940-1965 (Kindle Locations 2719-2720). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition.

The irony is that is exactly how Hitler ended. He used a gun and a cyanide capsule. That book is the only place I ever read that Churchill had a cyanide "bodkin" ready for use in case Britain lost the war.
 

Secret Master

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One of the problems with the older histories of the war are the classified things they couldn't mention. The revelations of ULTRA and MAGIC rendered some histories partially or completely obsolete.

Donitz's reaction to revelations of ULTRA in the 70s more or less sums it up: (loose quotation because I don't have the book handy) "Well, you [historians] are going to have to start over." And he was a guy whose memoir used both his own war diary AND Churchill's history of the war to argue his points about the U-boat war.

And then there was the opening of Soviet archives after the Cold War. It was a goldmine for those wanting to know what lies the regime was telling itself and what it actually believed.

Still, I think you guys will do fine. I already saw a screenshot with the E series of tanks; with that out of the way, everything else should be gravy. :p
 

Mr_B0narpte

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If I dont there wont be a game. A realistic WW2 game would suck. Germany needs to have a chance or it wont be any fun.
I agree, but the point I'm trying to make is that if the HoI4 Germany player is in a similar situation to the Germany of RL (i.e. tiny surface fleet, mainly land combat aircraft, little to no adequate landing craft) then it should have little to no chance of successfully landing in the UK. This isn't the same as saying 'Germany should never win' - in this instance it should only be able to perform Sealion if it has adequate naval bombers, a significant surface defence force and adequate landing craft (or be up against a stupid enough UK player that dedicates most of the Royal Navy in the Pacific/ Indian ocean, etc)
 

unmerged(12131)

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I agree, but the point I'm trying to make is that if the HoI4 Germany player is in a similar situation to the Germany of RL (i.e. tiny surface fleet, mainly land combat aircraft, little to no adequate landing craft) then it should have little to no chance of successfully landing in the UK. This isn't the same as saying 'Germany should never win' - in this instance it should only be able to perform Sealion if it has adequate naval bombers, a significant surface defence force and adequate landing craft (or be up against a stupid enough UK player that dedicates most of the Royal Navy in the Pacific/ Indian ocean, etc)

In the Manchester book it is evident that the ENTIRE British War Cabinet including Churchill EXPECTED a German invasion in the summer of 1940. Their hope was that Britain would fight in the streets to the last man and simply wear Germany down with a partisan war. Of course, that was never admitted at the time and never even mentioned in the Churchill autobiography of WW II.

They also expected in the Summer of 1941 that Russia would lose FAST. They were wrong on both cases.

Its also true, as mentioned above, that new sources of information appear every year and the later historians have more diaries and formerly secret documents published than the earlier historians.

Autobiographies, alone, are very unreliable since the authors will never mention anything negative about their own actions or views. Only biographies by professional historians and / or journalists with plenty of footnotes have any validity at all.

The way I see it is that the biggest danger to Great Britain is that their Parliament could have panicked, removed Churchill as Prime Minister and restored their previous pro-Nazi King to the Throne and then sought a tenable peace with Germany. The rapid capitulation of Belgium, France, Denmark and Norway are samples of that kind of outcome. Both Britain and the Soviet Union were in danger of panic, rout and capitulation. In Malaysia a superior British force routed to an inferior Japanese force and surrendered. In the Philippines a superior American force routed to an inferior Japanese force and holed up in a small area leading to their commanding general being ordered to desert his force and the rest of the force surrendering when they could really have defeated the inferior Japanese force.

HOI 4 should include the rout factor and the chance of panicky capitulations of all nations involved in that war.

For HOI 4 just the first 700 pages of the 1,000 of the last volume of the Manchester biography of Churchill are necessary to see many previously never revealed facts of that WW II era.
 
Last edited:

physics1915

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AFAIK Germany was only able to land these troops as it was arbitrarily given a day head start anyway.

Yes, from reading Cox's book I believe it was assumed that the Germans managed complete surprise and the British didn't realize an invasion was underway until coastal observers spotted the flotilla in the channel. Had British intelligence/reconnaissance picked up on the invasion before hand, Germany it's likely the flotilla would have been destroyed before landing the first wave. Even with air supremacy, it would have still been impossible for the Luftwaffe to destroy the vast reserves of cruisers and destroyers the RN had before their own shipping was destroyed, at which point it wouldn't matter if the RN could be kept out of the channel.
 

Beagá

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In the Manchester book it is evident that the ENTIRE British War Cabinet including Churchill EXPECTED a German invasion in the summer of 1940. Their hope was that Britain would fight in the streets to the last man and simply wear Germany down with a partisan war. Of course, that was never admitted at the time and never even mentioned in the Churchill autobiography of WW II.

"It´s not easy to be proud when you´re alone." Voltaire

And UK in 1940 was very alone after France fell. So yes the whole thing that "our empire, beyond the sea would carry on the struggle" sounds very cool, but not very plausible if UK actually fell and was occupied all the way to Glasgow.
 

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Just a further query, and thanks to all the enlightened souls providing such detailed information. We talk about forcing the UK to surrender, would it had to have been invaded to force the issue?

Had the Germans had the tanks and men to encircle and route the BEF
Had the Germans and Italians taking Malta, etc.
Won the Battle of Britain
Taking North Africa.
Para-drops of commandos to cause terror in the British countryside.

Would these constant loses and the Luftwaffe being able to target Southern England mean that the English population demand an end to the war, after all they may have lost SE Asia and some N. Africa, but it would not of affected the mainland and the population may have requested an end to fighting.
 

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If I dont there wont be a game. A realistic WW2 game would suck. Germany needs to have a chance or it wont be any fun.
Well this is why the game starts in '36. Most players can give just enough focus on naval construction in the pre-war years to at least make Sealion a plausible affair. Though this should come at an opportunity cost to some other sort of conquest, namely against the USSR.
 

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Just a further query, and thanks to all the enlightened souls providing such detailed information. We talk about forcing the UK to surrender, would it had to have been invaded to force the issue?

Had the Germans had the tanks and men to encircle and route the BEF
Had the Germans and Italians taking Malta, etc.
Won the Battle of Britain
Taking North Africa.
Para-drops of commandos to cause terror in the British countryside.

Would these constant loses and the Luftwaffe being able to target Southern England mean that the English population demand an end to the war, after all they may have lost SE Asia and some N. Africa, but it would not of affected the mainland and the population may have requested an end to fighting.

Look at China in WW2, they had the equivalent of all of those things happen, and worse, and they didn't surrender despite having far less hope, and far less capability.

So no, Britain would not have surrendered.
 

BBBD316

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But the Japanese wanted significant land in any peace deal, the Germans would have been happy to stop fighting to concentrate on the Russians, it is surely a more attractive proposal.
 

scroggin

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But the Japanese wanted significant land in any peace deal, the Germans would have been happy to stop fighting to concentrate on the Russians, it is surely a more attractive proposal.

A peace deal with hitler wasn't worth the paper it was written on. It would just mean he would conquer Russia first. Anyone who thought otherwise hadn't been living in Europe for the previous eight years.
 

scroggin

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The way I see it is that the biggest danger to Great Britain is that their Parliament could have panicked, removed Churchill as Prime Minister and restored their previous pro-Nazi King to the Throne and then sought a tenable peace with Germany.

Well I would half agree with this the British parliament could have replaced Churchill with someone willing to do a peace deal.

Britain's parliament however has no ability to replace the king, it can only ask. King Edward VIII had abdicated to avoid the scandal that would have come from marrying a divorcee, there was no legal way for him to return.

As for Edward being Pro-NAZI, a lot of people were sympathetic towards the Nazi's before they knew how evil that regime was, there is no reason to say that Edward would have collaborated with his countries enemy. If the germans wanted a puppet in the UK they would have needed to conquer Britain and install a republic with Mosley running it.
 

Porkman

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But the Japanese wanted significant land in any peace deal, the Germans would have been happy to stop fighting to concentrate on the Russians, it is surely a more attractive proposal.

The only land the Japanese wanted was Manchuria, which they already had. They were not pursuing a war for land. They wanted China to become to Japan what India was for the British. They essentially wanted to make the Republic of China a client state, but direct administration of captured territory was never their objective.
 

Darkrenown

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