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Well, I don't know about that. To make a successful surprise attack on USA as Nazi Germany, a player realistically would need a huge fleet of war zeppelins carrying about 50 divisions of crack hindentrooper "Eagle" commandos (How else can you take all of the major US cities in one giant swoop?). Sadly, no HOI game to date has allowed for that scenario. Also I was very saddened when AoD made no mention of zeppelin warfare technologies
. Maybe someday... a mod to suit my peculiar alternate history tastes ?
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I believe the plan should be more focussed upon then the actual Act of War.
Meaning, there should be an option when you start an action that might be considderd an act of war later on(Like moving your troops into enemy territory or launch fighters and bombers from airfileds or carriers) there should be a question to you "is this action a preemptive strike?" If you say yes war is declared and the surprise is calculated too the game mechanics accordingly, meaning any attack you launched with premature planning will cause more damage then the same attack when the enemy is prepared. If you say no, the enemy willl get a message concerning the action of the other player(or AI) and will make its decisions towards it.
Chances are then that the enemy(AI or human player) would get that message of your move before you have time to finish it(America noticing the Japanese fleet near Pearl Harbor, France notices enemy forces approaching the maginot line or Polish planes approach German planes bove Polish territory), causing you to be forced to either withdraw the preemptive strike or go ahead with the attack, loosing the element of surprise but declaring war none the less.
it would be a new element, but not mess with actual game mechanics. Of course, it would be a more effective element in HOI3(or 4).
Meaning, there should be an option when you start an action that might be considderd an act of war later on(Like moving your troops into enemy territory or launch fighters and bombers from airfileds or carriers) there should be a question to you "is this action a preemptive strike?" If you say yes war is declared and the surprise is calculated too the game mechanics accordingly, meaning any attack you launched with premature planning will cause more damage then the same attack when the enemy is prepared. If you say no, the enemy willl get a message concerning the action of the other player(or AI) and will make its decisions towards it.
Chances are then that the enemy(AI or human player) would get that message of your move before you have time to finish it(America noticing the Japanese fleet near Pearl Harbor, France notices enemy forces approaching the maginot line or Polish planes approach German planes bove Polish territory), causing you to be forced to either withdraw the preemptive strike or go ahead with the attack, loosing the element of surprise but declaring war none the less.
it would be a new element, but not mess with actual game mechanics. Of course, it would be a more effective element in HOI3(or 4
).
A nice thing would be if you had some kind of "historical score". Then you could make gamey decisions if you wanted but your score would decrease every time. For maximum points you would need to offer the japanese the correct number of ships of every class in PH on the correct date, and you could be informed if it by event some time ahead.
Each country would have it's own conditions for historical points, like not researching radar before a certain date as germany.
Each country would have it's own conditions for historical points, like not researching radar before a certain date as germany.
?? Germany was one of the earliest nations to research radar. Japan, on the other hand, left it very late because their concept was for a short war and they didn't think radar would be a major factor in a short time (well, you win some, you lose some...)
As to the scheme in general, it sounds a nice theory, if complicated but it does not capture the experience of those in government/leadership positions at the time, since their position involved a lot of uncertainty, conjecture and guesswork.
Balesir said:
For one the possibility to enter the war without any dissent hit for moderate damage. USA always liked a little kick like PH or 9/11 before they can enter the war with citizen support.
Balesir said:
preferably an AI policy.
the obvoius penalty for USA player for holding his fleet out of range and not defending islands would be invasions on the bases supported with fleet bombardment. maybe some kind of event giving dissent hit for a democracy not defending its citizens. when those islands are conquered we go back to
Balesir said:
well I know this is only possible in my dreams, but how much I would like to see it, maybe in AoD2...
and lots of player would need a clear pair of pants :rofl:
Im sorry, but I thought the DOW option is already always available in Hoi2?
Only way I can imagine implementing a surprise attack (even though not sure if this is possible) would be to have another diplomacy option that is "Surprise attack" and once done, it takes 24hours before the other country actually gets information about the declaration of war while within the week or so the attacker has surprise combat modifier always on his (or her) side.
However, it would always cause minor dissent to the attacker (general staff might not be pleased with the idea ultimately etc) + you would gain notable amount of belligerence, and the one under attack gains massive amount of free slider moves (+7 hawk + 7 interventiosm etc). So you could trade surprise for something that benefits the enemy in the long run if you fail to achieve success with that surprise.
Not sure if that would really work in practice but in theory, if the tradeoff would be made properly (war via surprise attack vs war via declaration pros vs cons list) it could probably work.
However, it would always cause minor dissent to the attacker (general staff might not be pleased with the idea ultimately etc) + you would gain notable amount of belligerence, and the one under attack gains massive amount of free slider moves (+7 hawk + 7 interventiosm etc). So you could trade surprise for something that benefits the enemy in the long run if you fail to achieve success with that surprise.
Not sure if that would really work in practice but in theory, if the tradeoff would be made properly (war via surprise attack vs war via declaration pros vs cons list) it could probably work.
You cannot DoW member of you own alliance and a country with Non-Agression Pact.
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In addition, you can't DOW any country if you have made a diplomatic deal with that same country, say, three days before. You have to wait a whole week for the option to be available again.
Main Issue: Surprise that non-aggression pact isn't working
My main problem is you have to wait 7 days after breaking a Non-Aggression Pact to declare war. Or 14 days if you have NAP + MA.
So this doesn't effectively simulate "Surprise that piece of paper doesn't mean anything".
My main problem is you have to wait 7 days after breaking a Non-Aggression Pact to declare war. Or 14 days if you have NAP + MA.
So this doesn't effectively simulate "Surprise that piece of paper doesn't mean anything".
Right - the solution to this remains IMHO to make "DOW country" always selectable.
This is a really good idea. Especially the part with the dissent you get from DOW-ing a non-aggression pact country. Let's say 5 dissent for breaking the non-aggression pact normally and 10 if you break it by DOWing. And let expansionist countries have less dissent because its populace loves going to war (i.e. Germany and Japan).