War through suprise attack?

[Mexbuild]

Hello,
I have another big sugesstion for making the game much more exciting. I would like to declare the war indirect by making suprise attacks like in Poland or Pearl Harbour. My intention is that this would be very dramatic if you could attack with a huge invasion army or contrariwise.

The war would be "declared" if the first assault is started.

What do you think?

 

[Titan79]

I've always thought that the need to declare officially war to a country in HoI2 was rather odd. After all, during WW2 it didn't happen very often - so why should we be forced to do it? The answer, I think, is that it has to do with game mechanics: you have to DOW a country to let the game "know" that you're at war with them.
That's ok for me, but the thing I'd definitely change is the need to send a diplomat to do that. I mean, I'd like to e.g. make a diplomatic action with USSR on June 21st, 1941 and then attack on June 22nd, 1941 without having to wait until June 28th just because I have to "wait for the diplomat to return"... :wacko:

My suggested solution: make the "DOW country" option always selectable.

 

[Mexbuild]

I know, but I think Pearl Harbour has never happend if the japanese declared war some hours before. You could add some conditions for this.

My dream is to make a great invasion of the US when I play USSR oder Japan.

 

[Misantropia]

move you're fleet near PH, DOW them and attack they won't have time to rebase planes, also move you're transports near wake island

 

[Mexbuild]

I mean this not only in the sea warfare. Especially air landings.

 

[Wildcat_PL]

To be honest with you I would rather prefer USA AI to hold BB fleet in the pearl harbor, wake, Guam or other port in range of japan fleet. And let the japan player locate those ships with inteligence, DoW at 4 o'clock and attack those battleships with carrier strike on port, destroying a couple of them with proper doctrines and fleet. Effectively giving a major blow to US navy. No need to an special events and other crap.
Currently there is an event giving a special temporary battle modifier. While USA holds their battleships and carriers in san diego, out of range.

 

[DarkLight]

I completely agree that you should be able to declare war and then launch an immediate attack. Afterall, as someone said earlier, the DOW is just to let the computer know who is at war.

 

[Fancykiller65]

To be honest with you I would rather prefer USA AI to hold BB fleet in the pearl harbor, wake, Guam or other port in range of japan fleet. And let the japan player locate those ships with inteligence, DoW at 4 o'clock and attack those battleships with carrier strike on port, destroying a couple of them with proper doctrines and fleet. Effectively giving a major blow to US navy. No need to an special events and other crap.
Currently there is an event giving a special temporary battle modifier. While USA holds their battleships and carriers in san diego, out of range.

the AI smart.
Can't you just attack right after the DOW? Works just as well. Besides, the AI still going to scream AHH!

 

[Chamoisking]

I think the DOW prevents us from accidentally making an attack and starting a war that you don't want.

 

[lionhead]

I think adding suprise attack like Pearl Harbor into HOI is not gonna be as effective as it was IRL.

Being able to take out the US fleet, even one or 2 carriers wouldn't change the fact you as Japan ain't got the resources too have taken he USA itself before the uSa build more ships. Which they are gonna do insanely quick after they are at War as the USA in-game would focus as much on Germany as on Japan. Menaing they would have moe carriers available before you even get a shot at Hawaii.

In-game AI doesn't demoralize from suprise attacks.

 

[Mexbuild]

Or you make it so:

You can move your troops in every province on the map. But if the province belongs to a country which is not your ally or you have transition rights for then you get a ultimatum to withdraw your troops or you start a war.

Is that a passible solution or crap too?

 

[guardian21]

Or you make it so:

You can move your troops in every province on the map. But if the province belongs to a country which is not your ally or you have transition rights for then you get a ultimatum to withdraw your troops or you start a war.

Is that a passible solution or crap too?

But then, you could move your forces in the Maginot line, lets say, get the ultimatum (on August 30) war breaks out and you are already in (or similar things etc...)


I would rather agree with the above posters, make DOW always selectable (and even if you have a non aggression pact, just, in that case, the dissent hit should be really big)....

 

[unmerged(87183)]

I think just leave it as it is, although I do like the suggestion to have the Option to Declare War always lit.

 

[Mexbuild]

Okay, I see there is no good reason for this. Thanks for attention.

 

[Fürstbischof]

Hello,
I have another big sugesstion for making the game much more exciting. I would like to declare the war indirect by making suprise attacks like in Poland or Pearl Harbour. My intention is that this would be very dramatic if you could attack with a huge invasion army or contrariwise.

The war would be "declared" if the first assault is started.

What do you think?

If you want to surprise the enemy, you have to move your forces in position in preparation of your attacks. Then you can attack immediately after the dow.

I think adding suprise attack like Pearl Harbor into HOI is not gonna be as effective as it was IRL.

I don't think that we need another gameplay mechanism, too. But we already have some PH surprise events, which could be slightly re-worked to use them in some other cases (maybe even Barbarossa).

move you're fleet near PH, DOW them and attack they won't have time to rebase planes, also move you're transports near wake island

I mean this not only in the sea warfare. Especially air landings.

Yes, air attacks can only be ordered once you're at war. But the range of your air transports is quite short, so your paras won't land anywhere besides Alaska. Therefore it might be for your game the best way to re-work the PH surprise events?

My suggested solution: make the "DOW country" option always selectable.

+1

This should definitely be added.

 

[BlueWarrior]

I don't think that we need another gameplay mechanism, too. But we already have some PH surprise events, which could be slightly re-worked to use them in some other cases (maybe even Barbarossa).

I think this is already covered by the low USSR starting GDE and the "recovery" the Great Patriotic War event (I am presuming that these or similar will be in AOD).

 

[Misantropia]

via event! that is the way (most of us want a hystorical game anyway)

mod 33 had the "surprised!" event for the USSR wich gave 2 months of very low morale and stats for soviet units, that was a very good event... as germany I coud make very good headway and encorcle as much as posible before the bear wakes up. and as USSR I could not control my troops from moskaw very effective because they had no idea what had hit them

 

[unmerged(45180)]

To be honest with you I would rather prefer USA AI to hold BB fleet in the pearl harbor, wake, Guam or other port in range of japan fleet. And let the japan player locate those ships with inteligence, DoW at 4 o'clock and attack those battleships with carrier strike on port, destroying a couple of them with proper doctrines and fleet. Effectively giving a major blow to US navy. No need to an special events and other crap.
Currently there is an event giving a special temporary battle modifier. While USA holds their battleships and carriers in san diego, out of range.

Imho the Pearl Harbor event should cause the US player to lose random number of capital ships without the need of having to locate them and win them in battle. Sure, might not be realistic but the result would be close to real. Just some easy script that lists all BBs, CAs, BCs, etc, and then has 30% chance for each to be destroyed or very badly damaged.
This would also make the temporary battle modifier futile.

 

[BlueWarrior]

Imho the Pearl Harbor event should cause the US player to lose random number of capital ships without the need of having to locate them and win them in battle. Sure, might not be realistic but the result would be close to real. Just some easy script that lists all BBs, CAs, BCs, etc, and then has 30% chance for each to be destroyed or very badly damaged.
This would also make the temporary battle modifier futile.

I don't think thats a good idea - why should a player lose a (say for example) CV that's sitting in New York Harbour?

 

[Balesir]

I don't think thats a good idea - why should a player lose a (say for example) CV that's sitting in New York Harbour?

This is a fair point, but the attack on Pearl Harbour is unfortunately a classic example of where the desire to see a "historical" game (which I generally interpret as "a game flow that looks and feels broadly like WW2") clashes with player freedom and 20:20 hindsight. BBs that happen to be in New York harbour sinking may be odd, but why would a US player not put all their BBs on the East coast for early December 1941? Fixing events to history has a fundamental problem, here - we get the bizarre picture of the US forces and government running around saying things like "Move it along, guys! We only have 4 days and 15 hours until the Japanese make their surprise attack, and we have to be ready to be surprised in the least damaging way possible!"...

The bottom line is that there are three options:

1) Force the event to happen, affecting the units that were affected historically, wherever they are when the event fires.

2) Let the event affect only the forces that are in PH when the event fires - chances are this will be 'nothing' for a player USA (and whatever you program the AI for with a non-player USA). You then need to decide if a Japanese attack that has little or no effect will actually trigger war, or is that just too gamey to allow to live?

3) You set up an event or an AI policy that is not tied to the historical timeline, but looks for a target of opportunity that is (a) within range of the Japanese fleet and (b) has a plausible chance of the Japanese staff believing it will force concessions after a short war.

Of these, (3) is very complex to set up and (2) is horribly gamey - so (1) is the (imperfect) compromise.