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t6.28

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War in EU4 seems to be too cheap: If you are not completely overdoing it, you only pick up a little of war exhaustion that goes away by itself in almost no time and pay a bit on reinforcements which might give you a few loans, but nothing major.
You can just have a huge part of you population die without any real consequences.

So I'm suggesting the following: first of all, large battle have to have a far larger impact on war exhaustion (and warscore), because as of now, you can win as much battles as you want without it really having too much of an impact (unless you stackwipe).
Also, being short on manpower needs to have a negative impact.
Here is my suggestion, based on the share of manpower you are lacking ((max manpower - current manpower)/max manpower) you get an accordingly scaled part of the following modifiers: -30% tax efficiency, +0.1 monthly war exhaustion while at peace (counteracting the default reduction), +100% stability cost, -30% goods produced, +20% development cost.
This represents the severe negative economic effects that the huge lack of capable men has.

Of course, to compensate this change, war enthusiasm would have to drop faster, to allow for fighting short wars
 
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Jomini

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I'd say that it's rather to the opposite. The main advantage of the player is that he is usually far more aggressive. The AI does a really good job at maintaining manpower, I've often been in situations where I thought, how could the AI possibly have any manpower left after this long war. The player on the other hand: What is manpower? I'll guess we'll just shift-consolidate, buy a few mercs and be fine. I've never really be worried about manpower in the whole game.

This was already baked into my analysis above. I gave the human responsibility for 10% of all the wars fought in game, this is saying that the human is over ten times more aggressive than any AI.

Further, please note that making war itself (and not just its spoils), is worse for the AI even in a simple head to head match up. Consider the opening proposal:
Here is my suggestion, based on the share of manpower you are lacking ((max manpower - current manpower)/max manpower) you get an accordingly scaled part of the following modifiers: -30% tax efficiency, +0.1 monthly war exhaustion while at peace (counteracting the default reduction), +100% stability cost, -30% goods produced, +20% development cost.

Who is going to be more likely to have low manpower? The attacking human or the defending AI? The AI, of course, they are always going to lose proportionally more manpower. You could make the penalty for low manpower be whatever you like; the human will hit that penalty less often. I mean currently if this sort of nonsense where implemented, who wouldn't go close to pure merc? Now sure you could then start doing something to stop making Mercs a get-out-of-WE option, but the deeper problem is that the human can readily consider millions of possible tactics to minimize manpower losses, the AI is lucky if its tactics can manage 10.

So what happens if we make war more expensive? Like any tax, you get less of it. Sure the player sits around doing nothing a bit more as they wait to build up war chests, recover manpower, or whatever ... but so does the AI. Of course this continues to reward bottom feeding where you go after only weak states with poor allies, which again the human does much more efficiently. Ultimately the growth rate needed to outpace the AI falls ever lower.

I think this is more of a problem for the AI, that you can just keep wars going with nothing to personally gain and only to destroy them. There would either have to be a massive call for peace in such situations, or some way for the AI to just fully surrender, directly ending the war in some way.
Sure, but like every deep human tactic, it becomes exceedingly difficult to lock everything down. After all we do have a call for peace mechanism, but you can avoid it without too much difficulty. If you are clever about it, you can actually manage to have negative warscore all while utterly destroying every regiment the AI raises. Having a call for peace when you are officially "losing" is going to be its own problem.

Likewise, Wiz has specifically stated that the dead-ender AI logic that makes them want to prolong wars is WAD. He says straight up that make peace too easy to force has its own troubles with exploits. Getting the AI to "just fully surrender" is going to take some deft programming to make that happen without it becoming the new way to get the AI to give up gains without significant player sacrifices.

And lest we forget, this is not the only option for trashing the AI. You can also nuke the AI with repeated wars (for instance the HRE can be utterly crushed by repeated declaring on some minor HRE state the moment you end the previous war). Hitting up the AI multiple times as a non-cobelligerent can have effectively the same result.

The human will ALWAYS be better at exploiting cost differentials, making things cost more is ALWAYS harder on the AI.
 

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Who is going to be more likely to have low manpower? The attacking human or the defending AI? The AI, of course, they are always going to lose proportionally more manpower.

Why is that? The human player is likely to get involved in to many wars cycling his enemies and has no problem with declaring further wars, even if he is already at very low manpower. Also the human player suffers higher attrition, since he, as attacker, needs to go around siegeing more and is mostly fighting in enemy territory.
I often see my enemy have significant manpower advantages (at least relative to their size).
 

Jomini

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Why is that? The human player is likely to get involved in to many wars cycling his enemies and has no problem with declaring further wars, even if he is already at very low manpower. Also the human player suffers higher attrition, since he, as attacker, needs to go around siegeing more and is mostly fighting in enemy territory.
I often see my enemy have significant manpower advantages (at least relative to their size).

Because the human will act nothing like you describe. Right now humans do these things because they have a high utility, and more importantly are easy enough to do, and conserving your manpower is of limited value.

Your proposal changes the incentive structure so we can safely predict changes in player behavior.

For instance, you assume that the human is mostly fighting on AI territory, why is this? The AI is programmed in defensive wars to take the war to the declarer if no troops cross their border (which is quite sensible, if they don't they may well miss their only chance to gain additional warscore when the attacker is distracted by a rebellion or other war). Waiting for the AI to come to you is by far the better tactical move against large unified AI doomstacks. Defeat in detail is still strong though so against collections of smaller states, you do want to be on the offensive more often. If I'm going to lose decades worth of income, of course I will wait for the AI to come to me.

Or take the simplest dodge. Say we triple all the maluses you suggest. What human would use manpower for offensive warfare at all? I already use mercs for all my siege stacks as much as possible until I reach unconscionably large manpower totals.

Humans are adaptable, the AI is not. Humans rarely suffer things like stackwipes, the AI routinely (both against humans and other AIs). If you make warfare more expensive, the human will optimize and adapt to get the most efficient cost setup. The AI will use whatever decision logic is left over in the programming from four patches ago.

And remember, the biggest stuff here is NOT what you see up close in your game, it is what happens in all those AI-AI wars. Where the AI is programmed to completely rebuild its forces, fight with them, repeatedly against an objectively superior AI. Right now the AI routinely zeros out their manpower in purely AI-AI conflicts.

This isn't something you can just slap on top of existing AI logic nor assume that current tactics will remain the goto ones, particularly for the power gamers. Instead, the AI will need several sequential major rewrites - first to not do obviously stupid stuff in the new strategic environment, then to counter human exploitation of new logic paths, then several more iterations as each change results in new ways for the human to claw out an advantage. Adaptation that humans can manage in minutes takes dozens or hundreds of hours of dev coding to get even decently done.


AI is hard and making it harder to wage war is an AI tax. AI-AI wars are where the vast majority of resources in the game are burnt and where they will always be burnt. Making war or conquest more expensive falls disproportionately on the AI and makes the AI relatively weaker.
 

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Humans are adaptable, the AI is not.

I still think you are somewhat overestimating the abilities of human players to adapt.
Of course you could potentially figure out some ways to circumvent the new costs, but the thing you seem to forget is that most humans play for fun and human players get bored. I'd rather doubt that many players would change their play style too much, since the fully aggressive (and costly) way just seems to be the most interesting. So a change would, excluding those "I just want to win and will use every wired, cheaty and boring trick" players, would rather benefit the AI, since it has the ability to restrain itself.

I also think that it probably wouldn't be too difficult to adapt the AI to that system. Making it more willing to peace out (removing the stupid length of war modifier, as well as some of the pointless -1000s) would probably do.
 

Jomini

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I still think you are somewhat overestimating the abilities of human players to adapt.
Of course you could potentially figure out some ways to circumvent the new costs, but the thing you seem to forget is that most humans play for fun and human players get bored. I'd rather doubt that many players would change their play style too much, since the fully aggressive (and costly) way just seems to be the most interesting. So a change would, excluding those "I just want to win and will use every wired, cheaty and boring trick" players, would rather benefit the AI, since it has the ability to restrain itself.


1. We are not talking about just one human, we are talking about the aggregate adaptability of the forums, reddit, livestreams, Google, etc. Consider how things have changed for PUs. It used to be that PUs were easy for everyone to get with minimal prereqs. So strategies developed to make the most of it. Rules changed and one or two players figured out how to manage game of thrones style play. Everyone who wants to can find a decent shot at playing the PU game without needing to figure everything out themselves. The AIs will only engage in PU seeking behavior if the devs dump a decent bit of man-hours into it.

2. Don't be silly about mitigating the costs. People will do all sorts of stuff to rack up bonuses. DDRJake created a OPM China, bankrupted it, and then had crazy mad bonuses. No one can predict how humans will adapt. The obvious trick is to just merc it up, but you also have options with Allies, Rebels, and HRE mechanisms.

3. It is a strategy game, this isn't a button masher where people just fire and forget, a LOT of people look for the most optimal way to manage things. I mean heck after every patch there is some thread showing that somebody has gone through the trouble of optimizing an Ottoman build for WC. Changing the incentive structure (e.g. rewarding manpower conservation) will change player behavior - that is what we call strategy. The AI will only change its behavior if we program it to.

Of course players change, we do it all the time. It used to be that people would make a mad dash to release all the big deceased states (Persia, Ukraine, Guyenne, Shan, etc.) as their vassals then let rebels top off their cores). We do not do this now. Instead we pick one or two good targets to vassal feed and stock up on those. It used to be that people would chase fleeing, broken stacks across empires to shatter them, then carpet siege the place, that has changed as well. Of course people will change their play, they have done so after every patch.

I also think that it probably wouldn't be too difficult to adapt the AI to that system. Making it more willing to peace out (removing the stupid length of war modifier, as well as some of the pointless -1000s) would probably do.

You are wrong. As a professional strategist I can assure you that the system you propose is among the harder types of things for AI programming. You have created a positive feedback loop where going from efficiently winning a war to inefficiently winning a war will rapidly slide into ineffeciently losing a war and rebel/vulture AI problems. It is all a downward AI spiral.

Say the AI starts losing a war, now it has less money, it can afford fewer mercs, so it uses more manpower, so now it has less money -> fewer troops. But that is not all, suppose the AI starts losing control of territory, it then gets increased WE. This in turn drops revenues and increases manpower expenditures (via revolts) as well as gold expenditures. Are we done yet? Nope. The AI is coded to trade stab away when it is heavily gold constrained so it is more likely to drop stab. How does it recover? All the other stuff you nerged - WE reduction, stability increases. Say you have AI Russia with Time of Troubles going and the Polish AI sensibly declares war. Manpower tanks, gold follows, that leads to even more manpower burn, with resulting higher WE and higher rebel counts. When does the AI pull out?

Positive feedback loops require heavy pattern recognition skills - that even though things have barely begun to head south, we need to very quickly stop the reinforcement cycle.


As far as making the AI easier to peace out, Wiz has pretty directly said he does not intend to do that. And getting rid of some of those -1000 will bring back the AI problems that got them put there in the first place. After all, your whole premise is that the more resources the player is burning, the more the AI benefits. A lot of those -1000 are to keep the player from getting low cost wars.
 

Jomini

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Look, at the end of the day, there is a real simple solution to you if you think war is too easy - adopt house rules. Give away half your income to some OPM each year. Boom, done. You have to figure out how to wage wars with a much reduced resource base relative to the AI.

The game plays exactly how you like and everyone else can play how they want. Your way will nerf the AI for a lot of popular playstyles even if we sink in horrid amounts of dev time into making the AI not suck terribly at the new rules.

So why not just limit yourself?