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Gothmog

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Originally posted by Holger Danske
Has any non-danes ever heared of the Danish-Preussian war of 1864?

Of course. A "checkpoint" on the unification of Germany route, if you will...at least in Swedish schools (from junior high upwards)...but for the most part a footnote.

Also (as mentioned numerous times above) in many ways the deathdate of pan-Scandinaviansim...

As for the effect, well, I guess that 1864 is in a number of ways what 1809 is (or was) to us...

and we've both lost Norway, so the similarities don't end there :):):)
 

mole75

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Originally posted by Vonsson
I don't think that Denmark could have possibly defeated Prussia no matter how efficient their military and advantageous the weather, I think Denmark had only 2-3 million inhabitants vs Prussia 25 million plus Prussias early industrial power was well in excess of anything Denmark could achieve. If Prussia could defeat both Austria and France then the result was a foregone conclusion.


I hate to dissagree with you. But Denmark won over Prussia in 1848 when we were attacked the same place. The wars of '48 and '64 was only minor and didn't have the full comitment of Prussia (or Denmark).
The major difference between the two wars was that between '48 and '64 the Germans had upgraded their rifles from fore-loaders (?spelling?) to rear-loaders (?name?).

The wars was acctually started because of some disputes about the Danish throne.
 

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rifles from fore-loaders (?spelling?) to rear-loaders (?name?).

Muzzle-loaders to Breech-loaders.

Steele
 

mole75

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THNX Steele
 

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The major difference between the two wars was that between '48 and '64 the Germans had upgraded their rifles from fore-loaders (?spelling?) to rear-loaders (?name?).

I have to correct you, this is a myth and "invented" in the years following the defeat in 1864.
In the war of 1864 there were three regular infantry battles between the two sides and the danes lost all three. One was at Sankelmark in Slesvig, I can't remember were two other took place.
Two of these battles (one of these are Sankelmark) were against the Austrians who also used muzzle-loaders, so you can't blame these defeats on the muskets used, since it was the same type.
The last battle was against the Prussians, but it was a Danish bayonet attack through an open field, WW1-style, and was more or less suicidal.

The real Prussian advantage - and cause of the defeat - was their rifled artillery that could fire much longer than the smooth-bore(?) cannons of the Danes. The Prussians could bombard the danish positions at Dybbøl unhindered through more than a month and when the storm finally came on april 18 1864, the danish defensive fortifications (and their defenders) were more or less shot to pieces.

I found a somewhat superficial, but still ok website, about the war of 1864 in english here: http://www.milhist.dk/1864/1864/1864.html
 

Mr.Penguin

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Originally posted by Mads TW
I have to correct you, this is a myth and "invented" in the years following the defeat in 1864.
In the war of 1864 there were three regular infantry battles between the two sides and the danes lost all three. One was at Sankelmark in Slesvig, I can't remember were two other took place.
Two of these battles (one of these are Sankelmark) were against the Austrians who also used muzzle-loaders, so you can't blame these defeats on the muskets used, since it was the same type.
The last battle was against the Prussians, but it was a Danish bayonet attack through an open field, WW1-style, and was more or less suicidal.

The real Prussian advantage - and cause of the defeat - was their rifled artillery that could fire much longer than the smooth-bore(?) cannons of the Danes. The Prussians could bombard the danish positions at Dybbøl unhindered through more than a month and when the storm finally came on april 18 1864, the danish defensive fortifications (and their defenders) were more or less shot to pieces.

I found a somewhat superficial, but still ok website, about the war of 1864 in english here: http://www.milhist.dk/1864/1864/1864.html


Nope the advantage of the Prussians and the Austrians was that they out numbered the Danish forces by something like 7:1 in men and guns. The Danish army consisted of some 30.000 men, it was promised 65.000 men by goverment, but they was never raised.

So the Danish Army could only fight an defensive war from fortifyed positions, slowly being shot to pieces.

The danish guns was also rifled, but muzzle-loaders. They had the same range as the Prussian, the advantage the Prussian Breech-loader guns had, was thier rate of fire and that they could be operated from behind cover onlike the danish guns. the same way with their rifles.

The Danish army was simply out gunned and out numbered from the start to the end of the war.


Mr.Penguin
 

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Why were Bismark's three wars so quick and similar technology wars like the civil war in the USA or WWI so long and indecisive?

1. Was it because of the terrain? The US civil war was over a large area, and WWI was over a large area.

2. Was it because of nationalism? Austria, France, and Denmark did not utilize nationalism quickly enough or well enough... unlike WWI and the US civil war?

3. Was it because the Prussians were so powerful that they simply overwhelmed all their enemies in huge advantages... and that made the wars short?
 

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Ah, as for Danish neutrality in 1805 , I remember something in a very detailed memoir on Nelson. Something alomng the lines of him insulting them by asking for Danish surrender was insulting the current leader. So instead of diplomatically smoothing things out after the batle the leader was deeply insulted by the theft of the Danish Navy and did not ally with the English. It' all a bit sketchy..
 

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Originally posted by CoolElephant
Why were Bismark's three wars so quick and similar technology wars like the civil war in the USA or WWI so long and indecisive?

1. Was it because of the terrain? The US civil war was over a large area, and WWI was over a large area.
Yes, to a very large degree. From Hamburg to Kopenhagen it's just not as far as from Kentucky to Savannah, for example. The European armies, and especially the Prussian ones, could take trains to the border, assemble their troops according to detailed war plans and cross the border within two or three weeks. Sherman's march for example took much longer because he had more distance to cover, and because the infrastructure in America was much more widely dispersed.

2. Was it because of nationalism? Austria, France, and Denmark did not utilize nationalism quickly enough or well enough... unlike WWI and the US civil war?
Partially, yes. The European wars were "cabinet wars", they were fought over comparatively trivial issues. It was about pieces of land (war of 1864 was fought over the counties of Schleswig and Holstein which together are about as big as Connecticut), about influence and power and not about the existance of nations as in the US civil war. The Prussians didn't want to wipe France or Denmark or Austria off the map in their wars... that made the peace solution much easier, of course. (France is an exception of course... they foolishly committed themselves to fighting on after Nappy III got captured.) Nationalism didn't play such a large role because there was not all that much to get aroused about.

The war against Austria for example was, above all else, about dominance over the rest of Germany, not about land. The only land that changed hands was the part of Schleswig-Holstein that the Austrians had gotten only two years earlier. It was about making clear who was the top guy, and ot was obvious even before the war that Prussia was the much stronger nation. So the Austrians lost nothing that would make them permanently embittered...

3. Was it because the Prussians were so powerful that they simply overwhelmed all their enemies in huge advantages... and that made the wars short?
That's what made the war against Denmark and Austria so short (anyone could have beaten Denmark, and Austria was hardly able to take on any western European power, let alone the Prussians) but they needed longer against France. The Prussians had to kick the French all over their country and lay siege to Paris before the French actually got the point.

Bismarck also had much less interest in letting the enemy off the hook that he had against Austria and Denmark. Bismarck knew he couldn't make enemies with everyone around, so he let the Austrians off the hook after that one battle... Königgrätz I think. King Wilhelm of Prussia had originally wanted to march into Vienna, but Bismarck was able to talk him out of it.
But Bismarck didn't just want to bounce France back one step, he wanted to kick the French in the ass. And the foolish French in turn didn't realize how badly they were outmatched until it was too late.
 
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Originally posted by Karl Martell
That's what made the war against Denmark and Austria so short (anyone could have beaten Denmark, and Austria was hardly able to take on any western European power, let alone the Prussians) but they needed longer against France. The Prussians had to kick the French all over their country and lay siege to Paris before the French actually got the point.

Bismarck also had much less interest in letting the enemy off the hook that he had against Austria and Denmark. Bismarck knew he couldn't make enemies with everyone around, so he let the Austrians off the hook after that one battle... Königgrätz I think. King Wilhelm of Prussia had originally wanted to march into Vienna, but Bismarck was able to talk him out of it.
But Bismarck didn't just want to bounce France back one step, he wanted to kick the French in the ass. And the foolish French in turn didn't realize how badly they were outmatched until it was too late.
When the 1866 war began it was not clear at all that Austria would be so thoroughly beaten by the Prussian army, and AFAIK they weren't. Bismarck even approached Wilhelm during the battle and asked to resign his office, should the battle not turn out well for Prussia, and even planned to lead "the last assault" if things went ugly. It was only won because the Austrian army finally broke after a they had put up a long fight against a better equipped enemy and because the Austrian officers were old-fashioned idiots.
Only after Königgrätz, Austrian army was demoralized, and there wasn't really any good military leader left to reorganize it. And don't forget that the Italians did bind a large army in the South, even after initial Austrian victory.
 

Mr.Penguin

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Originally posted by supergamelin
In 1864, Did not the Danes also face the Austrians? There were battles between the Danish and Austrian Fleets (Now that's a good subject for a naval wargame).

Yes the danes did face the Austrians, both on land and at sea. There was a battle on 9. of may between the Danish and the austian fleets in the north sea near the british controled island of Helgoland.

3 danish frigats vs. 2 austrian frigats and 3 prussian gunboats.

After a 1 hour gun battle was the Austrian/Prussian fleet forced to run for cover behind the british frigat Aurora in neutral waters at Helgoland.

Resulting in a small danish victory, due to superior seamanship and gunnery.


Mr.Penguin
 
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That's what made the war against Denmark and Austria so short (anyone could have beaten Denmark, and Austria was hardly able to take on any western European power, let alone the Prussians) but they needed longer against France. The Prussians had to kick the French all over their country and lay siege to Paris before the French actually got the point

I disagree, before the war most of Europe thought Austria would win versus Prusia, France even treathend to attack in the south in order to bind Austrian forces.
France fell becouse they battleplan reallied on a faster mobilization, and to strike in the south of "germany" and defeat the minor nations before turning versus Prussia.
However they mobilization was to centralized, and units had to go back and forth lossing time before arriving at they units.

In both cases the railway didn't play a role, as they were not designed for the task and didn't had enough capacity.

The war versus France didn't last much longer then the war versu Austria.

My theory why the US civilwar was so long (most wars, or campaigns are rather short, so the civilwar is the exception) becouse both sides lacked a profesional army. The militia favoured the defender, as the defender has the easier task, and doesn't need any leadership skill nor long training.
So the war draw out until the North mobilzed a sufficant force, trained them to be capable of offensive operations and then finally delivered the same, versus a skilled defender in favourble terrain.
(The distance between Richmund and Washingot isn't so great)
 

Mr.Penguin

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Many seems to think that it was a quick and short war, but it did as a matter of fact last from 24. dec 1863 to 20. july 1864.

A little time line:

24. December 1863.

12.000 Prussian trops enters Lauenburg and Holstein, in respons to the signing of the danish november constitution in Copenhagen, with the annexing of the duchy of Schleswig. there by breaking the London treaty of 1852.

The danish forces in Holstein retreat to the Danevirke line in Schleswig, a line of ramparts stretching across parts of Schleswig.


1. february 1864

23.000 Austrian and 38.000 Prussian troops marches into Schleswig. After the danish goverment rejected the ultimatum from the german bund, to leave Schleswig.


2-3. february 1864

First assults on Danevirke, failed.


5. february 1864

The danish C-in-C General de Meza decides, with the freezing of the waters in Mysunde to the east of Danevirke and the marsh areas to the west, that the position at Danevirke cant be held any longer. So the danish army of 38.000 men retreats north under cover of a snow strom with tempertures down to ÷10°C.


6. february

The Austrian Highcommand is taken by surprice by the danish retreat, but sends a force of cavalry and light infantry to try and slow the danish retreat.

Battle of Sankelmark. At Sankelmark lake south of Flensburg are the pursuing Austrian are stopped by the danish rearguard, in heavy close combat with high casualies on both sides.


7. february

the danish army splits i three, with two forces taking up fortifyed positions at Dybbøl and Fredericia, while a third force moves up into northen jutland.


17. february

Prussian forces starts the siege of Dybbøl.


18. february- 17 march

Fighting infront of Dybbøl, forcing slowly the danish forces to give up its forvard positions and pull back to main defencive line. The Prussians bring in heavy siege artillery and starts bonbarding the danish main line.


4. march

Austrian forces starts the siege of Fredericia.


1-17. april

When the heavy bombardment fails to force the defenders away from thier positions, the Prussians begins to dig thier way up to the danish main line. Constructing 4 parallel trenches, more than 1 km long, all the way up to the danish front positions.

18. april

The main assult on Dybbøl. From 4 am to 10 am falls 8000 shells on the danish positions. At the end of the bombadment, do 11.000 prussian troops in the first wave start the main assult on the 7 danish main positions, defended by 5000 men. Right after the first wave follows another 26.000 men.

At 10.30 am are all the danish main positions fallen, the many of prussian units starts an disorganised pursuit of the defenders, only to be meet by a counter attack from 3000 men of the 8. brigade, entering from the island of Als. The counter attack push back the prussian to the newly conquered danish positions, where the counter attack is finaly stopped, as the second wave of the attackers reaches the positions at 11.15 am. The 8. brigade hold back the Prussians for ½ a hour, to allow the remaining danish defenders to retreat, before pulling back with 44% losses. All the remaining danish units retreat over the bridges at Alssund, to the island of Als, blowing them up at around 14.00 pm.

the losses on the 18. of april was for the danish forces: 1669 dead and wounded and 3131 captive, for the Prussian: 1201 dead and wounded.


29. april

The danish goverment desides to give up Fredericia, pulling the forces across littlebelt to the island of Fyn. this leaves only the 4. cav. division with the 7. inf. Brigade, in northen Jutland, on the peninsula. The rest of the danish army are locked in defensive position on the islands of Fyn and Als.


9. maj

At sea the battle of Helgoland, small danish victory.


12. maj-26. june

Cease-fire. Negotiations in London.


26. june

The cease-fire ends, the prussains starts bombarding the danish positions on Als.


29. june

The assult on Als starts, with 2500 prussians in 600 boats crosing Als-sund under cover of the dark, as the first wave, early in the morning. After about an hour, do the danish iron-clad ROLF KRAKE shows up in the sund stopping for some time the crosing. But having only solid shots for its four 68 pounder cannons and seeing that more than 4000 prussians have made it across, it withdraws from this part of the fight and steams to the northen part of the island, to support the retreating danish troops there. The danish forces on Als slowly retreats fighting to the northen part of the island, where from they are evacuated by ship.


1. july

The last danish soldier leaves Als.


3. july

The last battle of the war takes place at Lundby, just south of Aalborg. It was a small and insignificant battle, but it was nevertheless noticed around Europe. Here it was clearly shown how superior breech loader was when compared to the muzzle loader. A Danish company, from the 7. brigade attacked a German company which had taken up positions behind a stone wall. The Danes attacked over a distance of 600 m with fixed bayonets. But in 3 rapidly fired salvoes the Danish soldiers were cut down. The attack broke down 30 m in front of the stone wall. By this time 56 men from the Danish company had been killed and 3/4 wounded. The German losses were 3 wounded.


20. july 1864

New crease-fire, end of the war. The danish goverment decides o sue for peace.