War inevitable with Yugoslavia, even if its in my alliance?

[Saltynuts]

A few games ago, I had Yugoslavia in my alliance as Germany. It was my puppet, clearly not a neutral. But then some event fired and I instantly went to war with them. This seems weird. Is there a way to avoid this? What triggers it? I don't remember this ever happening in prior games (maybe prior AoD versions).

Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

A few games ago, I had Yugoslavia in my alliance as Germany. It was my puppet, clearly not a neutral. But then some event fired and I instantly went to war with them. This seems weird. Is there a way to avoid this? What triggers it?

The event chain starts with event 5, then possibly event 6 and later event 3 and event 4 if germany is not AI.

event 5 and event 6 donnot trigger if YUG is a puppet of germany. They trigger if YUG is allied with germany but at war with ENG. As you cannot avoid the war against the UK puppeting YUG before entering an alliance with it should suffice to prevent the event from occuring. Or am i missing something?

 

[Saltynuts]

I'm not sure what the events 5, 6, 3 and 4 are. But as Germany I was at war with the UK, and had long since puppeted Yugoslovia. Definately had not beaten (or attacked in any meaningful manner) the UK, so England per se was not in existence. I'll make note in future games and post what the event was and the circumstances if it happens again.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I'm not sure what the events 5, 6, 3 and 4 are.

Yugoslavia breaks the pact of steel. It is one of the first event chains in \events\hoi2.txt.

Definately had not beaten (or attacked in any meaningful manner) the UK, so England per se was not in existence.

ENG is the UK.

and had long since puppeted Yugoslovia.

How did you do this? Did you annex it to create a puppet? Has YUG been part of your Alliance before you puppeted it?

 

[Saltynuts]

Ah, I thought you meant by England you meant the puppet that you can liberate.

I paid money to influence YUG. Then when it was at +200 or whatever is most favorable to Germany, I asked it to join my alliance. It did. Isn't this the same thing as making it my puppet? Then months later some event triggered and YUG declared war on me haha.

 

[Commander666]

I asked it to join my alliance. It did. Isn't this the same thing as making it my puppet?

"No", joining your alliance and your puppet are not the same things. A country that joins because you influenced it, or you asked it to join, or it wanted to join is NOT your puppet. Such country remains a sovereign country - just like Hungary, Bulgaria or Romania joining the Axis alliance.

Puppets are countries that you are master over. They are your economic slaves. They can not trade with anyone but you. While some countries start game with specific puppets (USA has Liberia and Philippines; SU has Mongolia; Japan has Manchuria) most puppets form as a result of LIBERATE NATION (a new nation that you create). Any nation you liberate (create) automatically is your puppet. Many people wrongly state "make it my puppet" when the correct phrase is "liberate it"... (and it became my puppet).

As regards you saying you puppeted Yugoslavia I doubt it. Probably you:
1) invited it into the Axis, and it joined.
2) A while later it broke "The pact of steel" and left the Axis.
30 Usually German player next DOWs Yugoslavia but you say Yugoslavia DOWed you. Hurray for the AI.

 

[Saltynuts]

Oooooh, I see Commander, did not realize the distinction! You are exactly right on what happened - and Yugo definately DOWed me, I was trying to gear up for an early SU invasion and they cramped my style.

Is puppeting a country generally better than just asking it to join my alliance, for the reason that they can only trade with you? I think you can assume military control of either, so that seems a push. Although I think if I invade a country and liberate it, a benefit is that they get all or most of my up-to-date techs (doesn't happen with a country that willingly joins your alliance, although can give them the techs over time), but a draw back is all their troops are initially wiped out so you have to wait for them to build new ones if you intend to use them.

Thanks!

 

[Commander666]

Is puppeting a country generally better than just asking it to join my alliance, for the reason that they can only trade with you?

I think you still don't understand. There is no such choice as you deciding - as regards any country - should you puppet it or ask it to join your alliance. A puppet results from a new nation that has been resurrected out of the ashes of destruction. It is territory that has been liberated by the conquer. What territories liberate and what are those new nations is pre-set as to historic ethnic cultural regions that always existed within large countries. What you liberate, that new nation is your puppet. And it automatically joins your alliance.

THE OTHER SCENARIO is you invite an existing country to join your alliance. There must be an ideological match, and good relationship. Once in your alliance, you and that sovereign country can trade to exchange blueprints.

Although I think if I invade a country and liberate it,

NO! You can not liberate who you invade. You can only annex who you are at war with. Out of that destruction - with the original country removed - now you can liberate new nations that more closely resemble the true ethnic origins of that particular region.

EXAMPLE: With the United Kingdom (a colonial power and great oppressor of all it ruled) kicked out of the British Isles you can now liberate the true settlers of that region - which was Scotland, England, and I think it is Wales. NOTE: UK and England are not interchangeable. They are very different things in AoD with England only ever being a liberated new nation that is a puppet of the master who conquered that region and took it away from UK. (Later, if you want, you can release puppets so they become independent sovereign nations.

...a benefit is that they get all or most of my up-to-date techs (doesn't happen with a country that willingly joins your alliance, although can give them the techs over time), but a draw back is all their troops are initially wiped out so you have to wait for them to build new ones if you intend to use them.

You are confusing three things:
1) What you wiped out was an enemy country. You did not wipe out the puppet's troops as the puppet did not even exist. That holds true even if the enemy and newly liberated nation have the same name (as in Canada).
2) What gets all or most of your up-to-date techs is indeed the puppet. As a newly liberated nation, it starts out fairly well tech-wise. Many exceptions exist.
3) A country that willingly joins your alliance can indeed get all your blueprints to so help their research.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I vaguely recall that there exists an option to negotiate a peace that puppets the enemy. But in many cases such an attempt will fail, one might aswell save the trouble and annex the country and then liberate it.

 

[Commander666]

Yes, the diplomatic action Sue for Peace has the option to "Insist on Demands" where one condition that can be selected is "Make Puppet". Even with war score of +100% I have not yet found success receiving that demand.

So I too just annex that country.... and then liberate the new nation that exists in the territory that was just annexed. Sometimes that is not the same country at all or that territory will not liberate because something is missing from creating a new nation in that region. I think this is the critical concept to help understand the complexity discussed above.

However, many times it is the same country but only as regards flag and name. The liberated country will be majorly changed from what it was before politically and now be similar to the conqueror, and indeed have identical slider settings. This is an important distinction that persons just learning the game probably have not realized because "annex it and liberate it" tends to diminish the political complexity of what is really occurring.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

You can force a nation to sue for peace if it's not in a major alliance - ie Italy can make Ethiopia sue for peace, same for Albania - Japan could do the same with Siam etc

Once a nation is in a major alliance (Allies, Axis, Comintern) then they normally have a suicidal determination to never sue for peace, even if that nation has lost everything and the only alternative is to annex.

The main benefit to getting an existing nation to sue for peace and become your puppet is to get their remaining military forces, and to avoid the dissent that would've been gained if you annexed and re-created ('liberated') it as a puppet state.

 

[Commander666]

Siam tends to "fold" long before aggressor can reach 100% war score, making it accept becoming puppet in a Demands for Peace proposal somewhat problematic.

Why would Japan sue for peace with Siam since they are never at war, are they? Siam joins the Japanese alliance naturally fairly soon after Vichy event.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Siam tends to "fold" long before aggressor can reach 100% war score, making it accept becoming puppet in a Demands for Peace proposal somewhat problematic.

Why would Japan sue for peace with Siam since they are never at war, are they? Siam joins the Japanese alliance naturally fairly soon after Vichy event.

In an online game a Japan player might want to attack Siam before that event in order to secure the area - either to prevent another player attacking Siam, or perhaps to provide a useful early launching ground.

Most AI nations not in a major alliance should fold & become your puppet once you have a 70% war score with them.

 

[Saltynuts]

Commander, I think I understand, I was just short-cutting. There are two ways that I know of to get "countries" on your side. One is to invite them to join your alliance. The other is to invade something, annex it (this is what I was cutting this out of discussion), then liberate it. On the former (invite countries to join), I think the benefits are they keep their military, which you can then use (assume military control). The drawback is you have to trade then all the up-to-date techs if you want them to have it. The latter (annex,liberate) the benefit is they get most of your then techs when you liberate them, but the drawback is they start with zero troops.

Is that about right?

Thanks all!

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

A third way is to invade a country, obtain 70% war score and force it to become your puppet. However Germany does not have this option as - after Danzig - any nation it declares war on automatically joins the Allies.

You can only force a nation to become your puppet if that nation is not in a major alliance - so it would work for an Italy or Japan outside of the Axis, or for the USSR targeting minors etc

 

[Saltynuts]

I see. Thanks Mr. Bonarpte!

 

[Commander666]

Is that about right?

Yes, you got it right. However, trading blueprints is not really a drawback, IMO, since you can usually recover the trade fee and get extra some supplies if it is 5 blueprints.

 

[Commander666]

In an online game a Japan player might want to attack Siam before that event in order to secure the area - either to prevent another player attacking Siam, or perhaps to provide a useful early launching ground.

I can see Japan attacking Siam only to secure it - because any country that folds before its last VC is even occupied is not secure as regards the UK or USA invading it. But it is a misled strategy I think.

• Firstly, Siam has a very useful mixed army of inf and mtn troops that Japan can use to its benefit. So Japan player having MC of Siam is somewhat powerful.
• Secondly, the problem is securing Siam against abnormal early folding if attacked. That is best solved by placing additional Japanese inf there so Bangkok does not fall.
• As the total Japanese inf needed to successfully repel attacks on Siam must be less if Siamese units are available to contribute to that defense, I fail to see the logic of Japan trying to secure the area by itself.
• A good compromise might be one Japanese division placed in Siam for every Siamese MTN division player of Japan uses to better advantage against the Chinese and their many mountains. After all, there is a rather nice attack against China by transporting Siam MTN to Haiphong and then up thru Wenshan; or even via Baoshan if Japan is at war with UK.