War in stellaris 2.2 is dumb

[redharo]

Capital planets are too important in 2.2.
In 2.1 you fought for planets
In 2.2, you fight for a single planet, the capital planet.

Before going to war with another empire, none of their planets matter except their capital. That's literally the only planet you need to claim

 

[AlanC9]

How did 2.2 change this?

 

[Bankipriel]

I don't know if I agree 100%, but you raise a significant point. Claiming an empire's capital planet is a death blow to their empire ... but then, really, doesn't that seem right? I think the answer might be making capital worlds harder to conquer.

Maybe what's needed is something like a capital world garrison which provides a strong baseline troop presence and some surface to space weapons that damage ships in orbit. I think surface to orbit weapons in general would be a very problematic mechanic to implement well (either useless or so powerful there's no need for fleets). But having them *only* on capital worlds would mean that bombing capital worlds to dust would be extremely difficult and costly, essentially forcing a ground fight, which can then be made extremely tough (but still possible) with the current mechanics.

 

[redharo]

How did 2.2 change this?

Before 2.2, your capital was just another planet that you can switch to a different one for 250 influence, preferably a 25 tile world. However, now, your capital is literally the most important planet that you own. it contains most of your pops, and the system contains around 15 minerals/ energy and 5 research.

 

[Delthor]

Before 2.2, your capital was just another planet that you can switch to a different one for 250 influence, preferably a 25 tile world.

This depends on playstyle. I usually make my home planet and first sizeable colony generalists, with full mining districts, a mix of other rural districts, and a mix of buildings to get me enough alloys and consumer goods to get my empire to habitats. Other planets super focused on minerals, and capturing a sizeable mining world can also be huge.

Then, once I have habitats, that's where I expand industry. And then eventually I build a ringworld, since I love them, even if their power is a bit dubious. The habitats and eventually ringworlds are the biggest targets once they exist, which is usually in mid game.

 

[Mercury Seven]

Before 2.2, your capital was just another planet that you can switch to a different one for 250 influence, preferably a 25 tile world. However, now, your capital is literally the most important planet that you own. it contains most of your pops, and the system contains around 15 minerals/ energy and 5 research.

As pointed out by @Bankipriel, this is how it should be. Loosing your capital world should be a severe blow to your empire, unless you took the time and effort to develop other world's to a comparable level. It would be unreasonable to assume that the planet that has developed an industrial and cultural base for your empire for millenia can be easily replaced by a freshly founded colony.

But I agree that it should be hard to take that planet.

 

[klopkr]

Capital planets are definitely more desirable in the early game since they're usually the only ones with a good population.

I've actually found myself eyeing out for primitives because if you invade their planets start off hating you but have lots of pops.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

It's in the players hand making his capital harder to conquer.

 

[Person012345]

I don't know if I agree 100%, but you raise a significant point. Claiming an empire's capital planet is a death blow to their empire ... but then, really, doesn't that seem right? I think the answer might be making capital worlds harder to conquer.

Maybe what's needed is something like a capital world garrison which provides a strong baseline troop presence and some surface to space weapons that damage ships in orbit. I think surface to orbit weapons in general would be a very problematic mechanic to implement well (either useless or so powerful there's no need for fleets). But having them *only* on capital worlds would mean that bombing capital worlds to dust would be extremely difficult and costly, essentially forcing a ground fight, which can then be made extremely tough (but still possible) with the current mechanics.

Maybe they could add some buildings in that makes taking a world hard to conquer, then the player could make the choice to build those buildings on their capital, maybe something crazy like that.

Honestly, aside from the AI being unfathomably incompetent and not even slightly a threat, the only real issue I have in this regard is how they seem to have gone backwards on the planetary bombardment and invasion system. I really liked that aspect in 2.1, but now it's reverted back to being a bar that you just have to deplete and bomb until the armies are gone. Nobody liked that system, but now they've added it back. Give me back the previous system, as of now the ground combat system looks like (I haven't used it much once I realised how much of a complete pushover the AI was) it's just going to be a tedious afterthought the way it always used to be.

 

[MK1980]

i've noticed that some AI like to build a bunch of precinct houses on their capital and those planets then have a huge garrison and become really hard to conquer if you don't have elite armies (gene warrior, android armies or similar) yet. i've actually skipped those planets in some of my wars simply because it made more sense to overrun the baseline 2 def armies on their colonies with no losses rather than lose a dozen assault armies in the attempt to conquer the capital.

maybe the "empire capital" status could just double the number of defense armies you get on the planet or something. so it would be a lot harder to overrun the garrison even if the AI (or player) doesn't go out of their way to fortify them.

 

[Bankipriel]

Maybe they could add some buildings in that makes taking a world hard to conquer, then the player could make the choice to build those buildings on their capital, maybe something crazy like that.

Honestly, aside from the AI being unfathomably incompetent and not even slightly a threat, the only real issue I have in this regard is how they seem to have gone backwards on the planetary bombardment and invasion system. I really liked that aspect in 2.1, but now it's reverted back to being a bar that you just have to deplete and bomb until the armies are gone. Nobody liked that system, but now they've added it back. Give me back the previous system, as of now the ground combat system looks like (I haven't used it much once I realised how much of a complete pushover the AI was) it's just going to be a tedious afterthought the way it always used to be.

I guess I didn't express my ideas as clearly as I intended, because I was trying to suggest (essentially) a solution to the problem that you reiterate in your own post. Of course there are fortifications that can be built, but they are completely irrelevant if your fleet has been trounced by an enemy fleet. There is then nothing to stop the enemy fleet from bombing the capital into dust, as you seem to also agree. My suggestion of some kind of capital world defenses was not because I am unaware of the fortification mechanics presently in the game---I just they think there mostly useless, and certainly useless against a vastly superior fleet. Indeed, I would greatly welcome the ability to strategically construct meaningful early- & mid-game planetary defenses that could stop a fleet from bombing it into dust. Until planetary shields are researched though (are they still in 2.2? I don't know) there is very little chance of forcing a ground fight and grinding out enough war exhaustion to force a peace treaty.

I was trying to say that I would enjoy more strategic options for planetary defense.

 

[CyberianK]

There is also the issue that your trade collapses it the Starport on capital is destroyed and you can't change capital while at war.

I don't do multiplayer but is anyone doing things like Blitzing or jumping into some Xenophile Traders Capital and destroying the starport so the whole empire collapses cause he is at -5000 energy?

 

[Person012345]

I guess I didn't express my ideas as clearly as I intended, because I was trying to suggest (essentially) a solution to the problem that you reiterate in your own post. Of course there are fortifications that can be built, but they are completely irrelevant if your fleet has been trounced by an enemy fleet. There is then nothing to stop the enemy fleet from bombing the capital into dust, as you seem to also agree. My suggestion of some kind of capital world defenses was not because I am unaware of the fortification mechanics presently in the game---I just they think there mostly useless, and certainly useless against a vastly superior fleet. Indeed, I would greatly welcome the ability to strategically construct meaningful early- & mid-game planetary defenses that could stop a fleet from bombing it into dust. Until planetary shields are researched though (are they still in 2.2? I don't know) there is very little chance of forcing a ground fight and grinding out enough war exhaustion to force a peace treaty.

I was trying to say that I would enjoy more strategic options for planetary defense.

It always has been and always will be the case that if you get absolutely wrecked in space, the enemy will be able to bombard you to the dust and imo it should be that way. Generally you shouldn't be getting wrecked in space. Ideally wars would be relatively close and come down to war exhaustion for the most part. In 2.1 you could delay the enemy for giant amounts of time if you fortified. People whined and cried about this because people always whine and cry about everything, but my view was that this was the point, it meant you actually had to send in the ground troops or risk allowing the enemy to build up again and come at you (this actually played a critical role in me defeating an invasion by 3 AI powers in one of my games, the GROUND battle of Earth, my home planet, was what turned the entire tide of the war). Because of the somewhat random nature of building ruining (I think it should be totally random unless selective bombardment is chosen) it could take a really long time, armies were protected by the forts and you couldn't be sure how long it would take to whittle down the enemy's strength.

Right now we've reverted back, unless I'm missing something about the current system. You sit there and sure, if there are enough armies it might take a while to take them all down, but it's predictable and it's just a matter of bombing the planet until you have more dudes. There's no decisions about taking a chance rather than sitting there some more because you don't know whether the next tick will ruin another fort or not and you have problems appearing, you just sit there for as long as you can and then if you have a big enough army you invade, if you don't maybe you have to leave. You know roughly how long you have to commit your fleet to that planet and more forts just linearly increase the number of armies and therefore time. It doesn't help that armies don't seem to me to be a particularly big expense in this version.

 

[Rezrac]

Speaking of War, has anyone experienced a situation in which the AI just sits in their Empire Capital despite being at war with them?

 

[evilcat]

If you can conquere early on other empire core planet, that is big deal. JUmp from 35 pop to 65 pop in like 20 years is a change.
However switching off from steady development to alloy production is big change, and not without price.

Maybe PDX can teach AI to if rivalry yes then build stronghold in capital?

 

[Sinister2202]

Even if that were true, wouldn't that make you wanna defend it to the death even more?

Anyways I find most of my colonies just as important as they are specialized. Without that one gaia world with food modifier in the corner of my empire, my population would starve super fast. Without that one ecumenopolis, no more consumer goods and alloys for me. All are life blood of how far I've progressed and I really couldn't afford to lose any. Which is why, even with Glavius AI mod, I try to never fall behind in military power. (And I've spawned next to one fanatic purifier and devouring swarm. tough luck)

But without my capital... all those administrators... all those merchants... Well, they can always be replaced, but it does have the highest trade value + galactic market HQ.

Speaking of War, has anyone experienced a situation in which the AI just sits in their Empire Capital despite being at war with them?

They do this when they think it's futile, or they are just too dumb.

 

[Belhedler]

Ah so true. I've conquered the two home worlds of my hostile neighbours within the first 35 years. So yeah for a boost, it was quite the boost indeed. It's their fault, they attacked me not the other way around.