Want to see the AI cheating? Have a look at this picture.

[unmerged(56084)]

Force H

Their was no big fleet stationed at Gibraltar, the size of the fleet varied during the war with at one point consisted of 2 Cruisers and 9 destroyers. If BBs would have been needed they would have come from the Home Fleet. Its a combination of ships,mines,aircraft and shore emplacements plus the fact that its a choke point an easily defended that makes it hard to cross but not impossible. But i still believe it shouldnt be a rule that if you control Gibraltar nobody can go threw the straights, one observation is for all the shore emplacements in the world they wont stop a submerge sub from going threw, you need some kind of fleet there. Or different rules for sub/surface vessels. As for Suez thats a different story if you control one side you shouldnt be aloud to go threw at all its to narrow and you would be able to board the vessels coming threw from canoes.

Aaron

After France fell in 1940, the British created Force "H". This task force was based in Gibralter and was responsible for taking up the Allied defense of the Western Med. It consisted of 3BC, 2BB, and an AC...plus screens (DD,CL).
The primary engagements during the war were the harrowing supply convoys to Malta..1940-1943..numerous Allied ships were lost, capital, screens and convoy ships. Malta was the main nuisance to the Axis, since it straddled the supply route to the Libyan coast. Allied raids from Malta hampered N. African operations.

Operation Felix was the plan for the capture of Gibralter. It was an overland (through Spain) operation. Spain never agreed to grant land access, since they would then be at war...Once in posession of Gibralter, the German plan was to close the strait by means of: Luftwaffe staged from Spanish bases, mines laid in the strait, coastal artillery, and subs....working together.
For their part, the British planned to seize the Canary islands if Gibralter was lost. It was deemed imperative for the purpose of maintining control of the shipping lanes.

The loss of Gibralter would have greatly facilitated the eventual capture of Malta. The Allies could still probably force through a heavily armed convoy, if it was absolutely imperative, however the losses would be considerable. The battle would look something like this: Long range Axis patrol aircraft pick up the British Fleet long before reaching the strait. Axis Condor's come out and start to pick away at the fleet. Then the U-Boats have their turn, and while the ships are dealing with the subs...suddenly overhead come.....Stuka's, who will repeatedly hit at the fleet, return to base, refuel and rearm and revisit. Finally as the fleet reaches the strait, it faces the coastal artillery batteries, the mines, and more.....Stuka's......whatever gets through would immediately proceed into the Med where it would face more subs and.....Stuka's....from there the Fleet could then proceed to Malta where it would encounter the usual threats; subs, Italian surface ships...I can imagine what that fleet would have looked like upon it's arrival in Malta.

 

[jonnyincognito]

So is the issue when you load up the saved game as the UK that if the ships are under AI control that they can move here and if they are not they can't? Seems like a bug to me and you should post it in the bug forum.

 

[Onedreamer]

After France fell in 1940, the British created Force "H". This task force was based in Gibralter and was responsible for taking up the Allied defense of the Western Med. It consisted of 3BC, 2BB, and an AC...plus screens (DD,CL).

that was when the task force was used to sink the french battleships, afterwards its ranks were quite inferior. 1 BC (HMS Renown), 1 BB (HMS Resolution) and the Ark Royal (CV) - HMS Valiant was sent to the Med. Fleet after Greece IIRC, plus normally an additional BB sent from the Home Fleet, there were also 3-4 light cruisers.

 

[berhaven]

Malta was the main nuisance to the Axis, since it straddled the supply route to the Libyan coast. Allied raids from Malta hampered N. African operations.

Malta importance has often been overstated from both allied and axis hisorians.
It certainly was a nuisance to supply from Italy to Lybia and Tunisia, and in some phases much more than a nuisance (e.g. when surface Force k was able to operate from Malta).
Epic battles were fought on both sides around Malta.
But the real key to Africa warfare was that in summer/fall 1942 the supply envoyed to Africa was in the range of 50 k tons per month from Italy (with significant losses around the El Alamein battles), while an average of 500k tons reached Egypt on the Allied side.

 

[Jazumir]

After France fell in 1940, the British created Force "H". This task force was based in Gibralter and was responsible for taking up the Allied defense of the Western Med. It consisted of 3BC, 2BB, and an AC...plus screens (DD,CL).
The primary engagements during the war were the harrowing supply convoys to Malta..1940-1943..numerous Allied ships were lost, capital, screens and convoy ships. Malta was the main nuisance to the Axis, since it straddled the supply route to the Libyan coast. Allied raids from Malta hampered N. African operations.

Operation Felix was the plan for the capture of Gibralter. It was an overland (through Spain) operation. Spain never agreed to grant land access, since they would then be at war...Once in posession of Gibralter, the German plan was to close the strait by means of: Luftwaffe staged from Spanish bases, mines laid in the strait, coastal artillery, and subs....working together.
For their part, the British planned to seize the Canary islands if Gibralter was lost. It was deemed imperative for the purpose of maintining control of the shipping lanes.

The loss of Gibralter would have greatly facilitated the eventual capture of Malta. The Allies could still probably force through a heavily armed convoy, if it was absolutely imperative, however the losses would be considerable. The battle would look something like this: Long range Axis patrol aircraft pick up the British Fleet long before reaching the strait. Axis Condor's come out and start to pick away at the fleet. Then the U-Boats have their turn, and while the ships are dealing with the subs...suddenly overhead come.....Stuka's, who will repeatedly hit at the fleet, return to base, refuel and rearm and revisit. Finally as the fleet reaches the strait, it faces the coastal artillery batteries, the mines, and more.....Stuka's......whatever gets through would immediately proceed into the Med where it would face more subs and.....Stuka's....from there the Fleet could then proceed to Malta where it would encounter the usual threats; subs, Italian surface ships...I can imagine what that fleet would have looked like upon it's arrival in Malta.

Okay, so this is what it would have looked like in RL (i mostly agree). But what does that mean concerning how GIB should be handled in-game?

First off all: Possession of the rock doesnt erect an inpenetrable force-field across the strait - it is still possible to at least try to go through. It might be suicide, but even that is an option, isnt it?

So assuming that, what real advantage does the defender of the straits have? Well, there are the air-field(s). Those are already in the game and are an advantage leverable. Nearby ports, too.

What is not ´in´ are mines. Those would be a whole new feature to implement, and not an easy one either, since they shouldnt be deployable at will and their cost/effectiveness must vary with the sizes of the sea-provinces in which they are deployed.

But there is something else, and i am not sure, if or to what extent this is already in the game: The effect of the stait (and any other one) on detection. A penetrating fleet (leaving subs aside for a minute) might get past the rock, but it most certainly wont do so unnoticed. So, a strait-controlling province should set the detection avoidance of all enemy ships trying to pass to zero, pretty much - and i *think* this would also effect combat, if there is one, wouldnt it?

 

[teamgene]

The loss of Gibralter would have greatly facilitated the eventual capture of Malta. The Allies could still probably force through a heavily armed convoy, if it was absolutely imperative, however the losses would be considerable. The battle would look something like this: Long range Axis patrol aircraft pick up the British Fleet long before reaching the strait. Axis Condor's come out and start to pick away at the fleet. Then the U-Boats have their turn, and while the ships are dealing with the subs...suddenly overhead come.....Stuka's, who will repeatedly hit at the fleet, return to base, refuel and rearm and revisit. Finally as the fleet reaches the strait, it faces the coastal artillery batteries, the mines, and more.....Stuka's......whatever gets through would immediately proceed into the Med where it would face more subs and.....Stuka's....from there the Fleet could then proceed to Malta where it would encounter the usual threats; subs, Italian surface ships...I can imagine what that fleet would have looked like upon it's arrival in Malta.

Stuka's performance at sea was rather poor. Ju-88's did quite well. But this mute, the Axis were not close to taking Gibralter and one can question even if they had the capability to take it.

It would have been more, Germans plan to attack, british learn of it and sabotage their efforts by hook or crook. Italians tell germans they think the british have broken their code and the germans say impossible...repeat and rinse. Pretty much what happened in N. Africa.

 

[Illusori]

Yeah but let's stop saying that UK was holding Gibraltar with the Mighty Fleet of Doom, please. That was not the case.

It's also not the case that I have ever said that it was. If you're going to reply to me, it helps to reply to something that I have actually said.

 

[Greywolf]

Ok... lots of sillyness on this thread people...

Why is possession of Gibraltar mean doom for a CW trying to go through ?

1- They have to depart from Africa, Britain or Suez, meaning it is a blue navy and probably too far away to have a lot of minesweeper or smaller ships.

2- The channel is 14 km wide... the sailable part of it for a large battleship is nowhere that wide.

3- Multiple large battleship opperating at close proximity in a mined channel is a recipe for doom. Do it at night and you are going to finish on you-tube.

4- Coastal battery aren't easier to hit from battleship than Battleship are from coastal battery. If one of them is moving then both are moving, did you learn about relativity somewhere ? what impact is : size and vulnerability. And that is going to be bad for the ships wich are larger and far less protected than heavy concrete and pure granit rocks.

5- You cant expect to simply rush fast past the defense and survive :

a- there is this minefield around here meaning that if you hit one then you will probably sunk and make the life difficult for the other ships that will have to try to avoid you and the mines while going fast.
b- if you are damaged then you are history... you are far too much away from your bases to survive, especially as you cant turn back and had to hope to go to Malta or better Suez without being sunk by submarines, airforces or just the damages going.

 

[Illusori]

Considering they could not even complete the guns (the original SERIOUS designed ones) for the Ginesenau... no they would NOT be able to deliver at other side of SPAIN a reasonable battery of at least 15 inch guns capable of engaging battleships effectively.

"Did not" is not the same as "could not". All participants in the war were capable of many things that they did not do, because they either had no need to, or felt that their priorities were elsewhere.

To be a serious deterrent by itself, there would need to be at LEAST 8-12 15 inch guns. Anything less and would be too weak to challenge a battleship running trough at maximum speed and exposing itself for few minutes at a "good firing range".

They wouldn't need to shoot at any battleships running through at maximum speed, those captains would sink themselves by hitting the mines without any help from coastal artillery.

They could if they pushed MASSIVE amount of their effort to do that. But its not like Germany industry and logistics spent much time idle from 36 to 45.....

It's a matter of priorities, any amount of "MASSIVE" effort is still going to be far less than the effort put into building the ships the coastal battery would have been sinking.

The only thing SERIOUSLY threatening a task force of battleships and destroiers trying to run trough would be mines, torpedo boats and air force. And all those for a fraction of the cost of a single 15 inch gun.

Yes, there's many other effective means to prevent ships passing, and in combination is where their strengths lie. At no point have I said that coastal artillery on its own is sufficient to the task.

 

[Illusori]

Okay, so this is what it would have looked like in RL (i mostly agree). But what does that mean concerning how GIB should be handled in-game?

First off all: Possession of the rock doesnt erect an inpenetrable force-field across the strait - it is still possible to at least try to go through. It might be suicide, but even that is an option, isnt it?

What is not ´in´ are mines. Those would be a whole new feature to implement, and not an easy one either, since they shouldnt be deployable at will and their cost/effectiveness must vary with the sizes of the sea-provinces in which they are deployed.

But there is something else, and i am not sure, if or to what extent this is already in the game: The effect of the stait (and any other one) on detection. A penetrating fleet (leaving subs aside for a minute) might get past the rock, but it most certainly wont do so unnoticed. So, a strait-controlling province should set the detection avoidance of all enemy ships trying to pass to zero, pretty much - and i *think* this would also effect combat, if there is one, wouldnt it?

This is why it's modelled as a plain old blockage, because the game has no support for the constraints of naval battle within a straight, all naval combat appears to be modelled on open-seas combat.

I've not tried it yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's possible for air patrols to fail to detect fleets in the straights, which seems remarkably... umm... implausible.

There's no form of coastal defenses hindering fleets either, or just the difficulties imposed by trying to move a 24-stack of quarter-mile long ships in a 7-mile wide channel.

Basically the game isn't set up to model all the additional difficulties that would be faced, and it's not that surprising it doesn't since we're talking about 4-5 sea provinces out of however-many thousand: ie the majority of naval combat does, and should, be conducted elsewhere.

The inpenetrable (to players anyway...) forcefield is a least-worst solution compared to if the game did let fleets try to force passage, in which case they'd regularly do it, and under current game mechanics, do so with near impunity.

 

[unmerged(56084)]

Stuka's Naval performance

Stuka's performance at sea was rather poor. Ju-88's did quite well. But this mute, the Axis were not close to taking Gibralter and one can question even if they had the capability to take it.

It would have been more, Germans plan to attack, british learn of it and sabotage their efforts by hook or crook. Italians tell germans they think the british have broken their code and the germans say impossible...repeat and rinse. Pretty much what happened in N. Africa.

The RN during operations such as Crete and Norway, where they operated close to shore, suffered under dive bomber attacks. Cruisers, destroyers and other support ships were sunk or heavily damaged by these attacks. The RN's
carrier HMS Illustrious was heavily damaged by Stuka's in 1941.

As for Gibralter; If Spain gave them access, the British felt the Axis could take it...so they prepared Operation Tracer, which would have left a small group behind to spy on the occupying force and give intel on ship activity through the strait. Thx

 

[Onedreamer]

It's also not the case that I have ever said that it was. If you're going to reply to me, it helps to reply to something that I have actually said.

You have said it. You said UK didn't need coastal batteries because it could relay on its Mighty Fleet of Doom, didn't you ? "Floating batteries" is what you said, IIRC. You also suggested that Italy or Germany could have not relied on the same force that stationed at Gibraltar, which is incorrect. Thank you and come again.

 

[BlitzMartinDK]

If you have watched Das Boot you know that:
all Uboat in med is not built there but sneak into med through Gibraltar.
Half of the boats attempting to pass were destroyed.
None of the boats could make it out of med.


Although Gibraltar has no lock, you can still lay mines over the strait and leave a small pass, which has highest concerntration of land-based field artillery, submarine aiming all torpedo tubes at the hole, or even focks of divers. I think all naval commanders at the time will know passing through a strait controlled by foreign power is so dangerous.

I think you left out a Smiley, when using a movie as source :rofl:....
Of course all GERMAN subs in the med had to sail in.. Italy had quite a few subs of its own, though! And having made the passage in, the german subs were used in the med, with no reason to go home, since there were quite good italian harbors, and they even had GERMAN spare parts and torpedoes!

I still think a rather overlooked factor in this thread is SPOTTING. I know a few have noted it..But the most important thing about the wide ocean is : There is no-one nearby! If Italy were to control the med, and gibraltar, the rest of the allied fleet (after forcing through) would be met by some Italian BB's with support .. Just like Force H mostly wasn't in harbor, but cruising within reach..

I think it is quite plausible to bar straits as the game does..and thats about it...Must be a bug you noted

 

[unmerged(131628)]

I was also able to go via Gibraltar by simply giving Rebase order from Alexandria to England (Gibraltar was in Axis hands).

 

[stevieraystrat]

I don't believe I said at their leisure. If they wanted to sail through they could have however with a sizable force. Shore batteries were fairly ineffective against naval vessels in that period. Combine that with the actual sparse number of shore guns, additionally with the fact the guns were not all that large.

Just one British Battleship would have outgunned the entire defensive fortification on Gibraltar, in size of guns, number of guns and range of guns.

If the British decided to move a fleet into the Med, they could have easily neutralized the shore batteries well before they could pose a real threat. The real threat would have come from air attack, but with no airfield early in the war (I believe the airfield on Gibraltar was added after 1943?) air support is a little ways off.

Mining is the only real solution, and a temporary one at that. Not only that but it closes the straight not only for the enemy but you as well.

People who think that holding Gibraltar meant that the straight was effectively closed are buying into the myth of Gibraltar, rather than the reality.

Gibraltar was a no-go zone for axis ships and fleets because half the bloody Royal Navy was stationed there, and it was a narrow gap meaning that to run that straight you had to deal with half the bloody Royal Navy.

It was a choke point. It meant that you could put a maximum of force in a single area and have no chance of missing someone trying to sneak in or out.

Had the British lost it, unquestionably they could have sailed through had they wanted to.

The Germans and the Italians certainly did not have the fleet to block Gibraltar, and had they attempted to the British would have only licked their chops at the prospect of forcing a single decisive battle between the Royal Navy and a strong Axis fleet.

The shore batteries would be ineffective in any sort of real engagement. They would have been knocked out almost immediately.

You're living in a fantasy.

The Germans would have fortified Gibraltar with naval artillery bedded deep in concrete bunkers. You'd need a direct hit to neutralize such positions. Mining would result in an effective area denial.

You should apologize to all the people you insulted in this thread. It's ok to be wrong, you don't have to clutch at straws and get hostile just to win.

 

[Dunbal]

I personally don't see why Gibraltar should be this instant and automatic shut down of the sea lane.

The reason why Gibraltar was a difficult point to move ships through, was because of the FLEET that was stationed there.


If Germany or Italy had taken Gibraltar in WW2, it would not have been the same "no-go" zone that it was under British control.

You have obviously never heard of naval mines! Oh, I see that later in your post you have.

Such a narrow strait could be easily mined and patrolled. The British didn't mine it because they had the strength to patrol it and a vested interest in keeping traffic moving in and out of the med to and from British colonies.

For the Germans, however, it would have made strategic sense to mine it. That way it would require less resources to patrol the strait, and it would deny the Med to the allies. German ships would obviously be guided through the minefield by specialist pilots with maps, just like when ports were mined.

Either way he who controls Gibraltar, controls access to the Med from the Atlantic.

 

[BlitzMartinDK]

It would be a bit difficult, but not at all impossible to mine ..There is a very strong current.

 

[Sarayakat]

But there is something else, and i am not sure, if or to what extent this is already in the game: The effect of the stait (and any other one) on detection. A penetrating fleet (leaving subs aside for a minute) might get past the rock, but it most certainly wont do so unnoticed. So, a strait-controlling province should set the detection avoidance of all enemy ships trying to pass to zero, pretty much - and i *think* this would also effect combat, if there is one, wouldnt it?

Perhaps a lvl 2 radar set in Gibraltar could simulate the detection bonus?

 

[unmerged(20208)]

Gibraltar blocking the strait is a part of almost all WWII games, it goes back to the earliest board games. The combination of artilery and aircraft that can be focused there make attempting to sail past it suicide. Gibraltar should definately block sea movement as HoI combat system is not capable of accurately reflecting the ability of artilery and aircraft to achieve that.