Wanna suggest mechanics for other religions than Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam?

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Druplesnubb

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Suggested mechanics for religions other than Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam

I think it's unfortunate that only Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims get their own mechanics, so I created this thread so everyone could brainstorm and comment on possible mechanics for the other religions.

I think Protestant and Reformed can share the same mechanic. I like the idea of a mechanic that highlights how Protestant and Reformed aren't strict homogeneous faiths but represent several similar branches of religion. I've come up with the idea of a slider representing your opinion of other branches of Protestantism than your own. Lowering your friendliness could increase missionary chance and increase your tolerance of true faith but increase heretic revolts and lower other Protestant/Reformed nation's opinions of you (since they follow their own version of Protestantism).

For Hinduism my best idea comes from how different branches focus on different gods, with some for example only worshiping Vishnu or Shiva. My idea is to have a system where you can prioritize different gods over others with each one giving different bonuses. You might also add something concerning the birth of Sikhism, similar to the Protestant Reformation.

For Shintoism I'd suggest a "syncretism" mechanic that represents how tolerant you are of the Buddhist influences from China. And If you max out your syncretism Buddhism will count as Own rather than Heretic (you might also add something similar to Protestant/Reformed with the mechanic posted above, although that might be going too far). I'd suggest the same thing for Confucianism (which probably should be renamed to Taoism), but in that case the syncretism bar would probably have to be maxed out at all times with no way of turning it down. On the whole I think all the Eastern religions could benefit from the game acknowledging how having the wrong religion wasn't quite as big of a deal as it was to Christians and Muslims.

The Animist and Shamanist religions are way too broad, but adding all the faiths they represent as separate religions would be far too complicated. I think the most effective solution is to replace them with a Pagan religion and tie their religious tolerance to culture, so that every Pagan with the same culture as you counts as Own, every Pagan in the same culture group as you counts as Heretic, and every pagan from a different culture group counts as Heathen.

You could also add new mechanics to the Converter-only religions (reformed Pagans, American religions, Zoroastrianism and, technically, Hellenism), but I think it'd be too much effort for too little gain. I'd recommend just giving them the mechanics of other religions if giving them anything at all.
 
Last edited:

Warhawk43

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I think the Hindu idea is great, something along a mini faction system. I also like the Protestant idea. For Confucian I suggest something like patriarch authority, how much you follow confucius's teaching's.
 

LiberiusX

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I like your ideas for non-Christians. I honestly think the Reformation needs to be seriously improved, and your suggestion here could do that. However, I think Paradox needs to take some major steps to fix the foundations of the Reformation before implementing something like this.
 

mgoetze

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On the whole I think all the Eastern religions could benefit from the game acknowledging how having the wrong religion wasn't quite as big of a deal as it was to Christians and Muslims.
Right, Confucianism and Buddhism were not mutually exclusive at all for instance, one person could easily follow both teachings. Diplovassalisation should certainly be allowed between the various eastern religions.

For Confucianism, you could perhaps have bonuses that get better the older your ruler gets? Seeing as respect for elders was a big tenet of that philosophy. Buddhism... hm... better bonuses the longer you are at peace perhaps?

Also since England seems to have Lollard heretics every game now it might be nice to give them an actual religion to try to convert to.
 

Druplesnubb

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Great idea for Confucianism! It's nice to see that people like these ideas. Thinking a bit more I came up with an alternate system for protestants. It basically boils down to having several different denominations that you can choose between, each giving slight bonuses and affecting your relations with other nations depending on their denomination. You can change denomination, similar to how you can change government type, but it will cost stability and give temporal - tolerance for true faith. In this case Anglican would probably have to be renamed National and we might need a different name for Calvinist and Lutheran too.
 

unmerged(804580)

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Shameless copy from what I posted on 1.3 Wishlist thread:

Karavinka said:
- National Ideas for Georgia, Finland, Wallachia/Romania and Khmer.
- Correct the primary culture of Majapahit/Bali from "Sulawesi" to "Javanese"
- Ceylon shouldn't be able to form Hindustan. They aren't Hindu.
- Majapahit/Bali shouldn't be able to form Malaya. They aren't Malay.
- Formable Siam.
- A fairer look at Animism. Why is Shinto treated separately from the rest of Pagan animists?
- Please break up the "Eastern" religious groups. This group is a garbage bag for whatever's left in the game.

For the last part:
- A Dharmic religious group consistig of Vaishavites, Shaivites, Mahayana, Theravada and Vajrayana.
- A Sinic religious group consisting of Mahayana, Confucianism, Taoism, Tengri and Shinto.

Seriously, this kind of religious intolerance and conversion ideas are a bit too centered on Abrahamic religions. Instead, making each religious subgroups in the Dharmic/Sinic fluctuate in their influences within your kingdom and letting them bring differen bonuses and penalties would give them some more flavor and mechanics to play with.. in short, Syncretism mechanics. Orthodox has PA, Catholic has Papacy, Islam has piety. Playing a Buddhist or Confucian state, in comparison, is rather blend. A completely new "religious ideas" for Eastern religions is really needed, as it's just freaking weird to have a Buddhist state having Unum Sanctum, for example.

And, just as in any game, there needs to be trade-offs. High syncretism would make the realm more stable, but your neighbors would think you're crazy. Say, if Korea is getting too syncretistic with Buddhism while Ming is rejecting it, then they might start getting relationships malus and religious-ideological CBs.

"My King, our conquest of U-Tsang has resulted in Vajrayana resurgence in our nation, and our Vaishavite priesthood is concerned with our young men listening to preachers from U-Tsang. What should be done about it?"
> "Burn their books and renovate their temples!" > +revolt risk, +stab cost
> "Study their religion and find a syncretistic solution" > +religious unity, -missionary strength against Vajrayana
> "We have seen the true light..." > conversion to Vajrayana, -stability

Maybe the next game if not this. But the fluctuations and coexistences of different religious groups is what makes East Asia/India different from the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religious landscape, and EU4's current "convert the heretics at any cost" approach is somewhat dissatisfying when it comes to the Eastern world. Even Islam wasn't completely immune to the religious syncretism, as Sikhism is an example of it. A Dharmic state with high syncretism against Islam, plus Muslim majority, may form Sikhism as a decision..it wouldn't just have to be Punjab.

Oh, and Jewish minorities and related events would be nice. A province may get "Jewish acceptance" modifier for increased local tolerance and trade efficiency in exchange of pogrom revolt risks.

Just a little idea.

Basically, a nation would have one "State Religion" like in the game: be it Mahayana or Confucianism or Tengri. They can choose to remain fundamentalist or go syncretistic towards the religions within their realms, and each religion present in your realm would have a "syncretism" against it.

Historical precedences are many. Korea went fundamentalist regarding Neoconfucian orthodoxy to the active suppression of Buddhists many times in its history, while Shinto ... we know how it worked. Sikhism is a product of Syncretism, and Islam in Indonesian archipelago is highly syncretised with Animism (or what we would call Animism in EU4).

Fundamentalists in the same religion getting a lot of mutual relationship boosts and possibly morale but revolt risk, syncretists getting large relationship penalties but lowered revolt risk and plus tolerance... that's just my idea.

And religious flipping events should happen more often in those areas. "They see the light..." is one thing, but it'd be nice to see ebbs and flows of religions within your realm as well.
 

Illanair

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Code it and they shall come... or something like that.

From my experiences, well paragraphed event suggestions and mechanics (Or even coded and tested) are much more likely to make it into the game. Otherwise you're gambling with Dev attention span. :)
 

mgoetze

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Code it and they shall come... or something like that.

From my experiences, well paragraphed event suggestions and mechanics (Or even coded and tested) are much more likely to make it into the game. Otherwise you're gambling with Dev attention span. :)
I don't think a bunch of events and decisions are going to cut it... rather doubt everything necessary here can be modded.
 

Illanair

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Veru true - Which is why I also mentioned well paragraphed suggestions as well. A mess of a thread with suggestions bouncing back and forth isn't very easy to make sense of. Make a summary and edit the OP and make sense of it all.

Much more likely to catch someone's eye. :)
 

rbl0010

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Shameless copy from what I posted on 1.3 Wishlist thread:



Basically, a nation would have one "State Religion" like in the game: be it Mahayana or Confucianism or Tengri. They can choose to remain fundamentalist or go syncretistic towards the religions within their realms, and each religion present in your realm would have a "syncretism" against it.

Historical precedences are many. Korea went fundamentalist regarding Neoconfucian orthodoxy to the active suppression of Buddhists many times in its history, while Shinto ... we know how it worked. Sikhism is a product of Syncretism, and Islam in Indonesian archipelago is highly syncretised with Animism (or what we would call Animism in EU4).

Fundamentalists in the same religion getting a lot of mutual relationship boosts and possibly morale but revolt risk, syncretists getting large relationship penalties but lowered revolt risk and plus tolerance... that's just my idea.

And religious flipping events should happen more often in those areas. "They see the light..." is one thing, but it'd be nice to see ebbs and flows of religions within your realm as well.

Thats a very good idea but splitting Hinduism in two is not feasable for a game based on territories. In most of places in India both Vishnu and co and Shiva and co are worshipped and I believe the difference went mostly according to occupation/caste (ie a sub-sub sect of Vaishnavism being associated with a specific sub-caste from the general merchant caste, while the general population of the region, which could be pastoral, would follow the more generic Shiva-linked dieties) . It is true that some regions were associated with a specific occupation because of environmental conditions, but that doesn't mean that it would make much sense to split them! Yet for Buddhism it does as it is strongly associated with regions, S Asia, Tibet, East Asia, etc.
 

BoleslavLev

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Not really an idea for new ones, but topic related. Could it somehow be changed that both high and low piety/patriarchal power would get you both pluses and minuses? Now, there is no reason to be in the middle, you always want to be the most extreme about your choice, I´d just like to see some strategy for modest way of managing your religion here. In which files those bonuses are anyway? Thx. ;)
 

joos

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Hinduism:

Hinduism is at best an approximate word as even today there are glaring differences in the practice of it across India. To me, the most important factor with religion in India (as indeed, religion anywhere) is the role of the middlemen, the priests. In India, Brahmins constituted the priest class, and their influence on medival Indian politics cannot be overstated. In-game, the 'legitimacy' of dynasties tries to mimic this somewhat. But I would like to see events enforcing this symbiotic relationship between the ruler and the brahmins.

"Digvijaya" is another concept that was in practice among Hindu kings of this period. Basically, a newly coronated king is expected to go on a "Conquest Round-trip". In-game, this can be represented by a timed CB against neighbouring countries for freshly coronated Hindu kings. Perhaps at 50% AE.

As the OP mentioned, the Shaivite/Vaishnavite divide was as severe as the christian schism - especially in South India (areas under the Vijayanagara empire). In the South, most rulers were shaivites and persecuted Vaishnavites, Jainists and Buddhists rather cruelly. And Sikhism was essentially a response to the muslim invasion and borrowed ideas from Buddhist and Hindu philosophy to create a military-style religion. The success of the Sikh Kings against the Delhi sultans resulted in the Sultan making peace and hasty concessions with them.

And like the Byzantine refugees, Sufi and Parsi refugees to the Indian subcontinent brought with them a new branch of art and culture, of cuisine and technology. Maybe this can also be depicted with the help of an event?
 

1alexey

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I don`t think protestants are supposed to get any mechanics. They were against the big church hierarchy, and for a localised churh. Thus, the church as an institution should not benefit them, but also the such church has no say in matters of state, hence the state should be more free to reign as it sees ft, not looking tio religious leaders for approval.
 

Dakilla TM

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The Eastern religions need some bonuses. Buddhism and Confucianism have some pretty lousy bonuses, and to top it off, no slider. Hinduism seems like the best eastern religion because of the bonuses. Protestant and Reformed should be merged, as Reformed is a branch of Protestantism. Sunni and Shiite are fine right now IMO. Orthodox should get a choice slider like Islam, so you can choose which way you'd like.
 

Kapitalisti

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Well the orthodox already have a slider, the patriarch authority one.