Walk me through how you would do this... (Qing thread)

[Madae]

Since the going opinion, as far as I've seen, is that this isn't too difficult, I want to get these opinions on how I should proceed. This is the situation, and it's about as perfect as I have been able to get it so far;

The path was Haixi -> Yeren -> Burytia -> Mongolia -> Korchin. The year is 1457. 558 in the bank (-1.74 a month) and Sagir as a vassal (Kara Del allied, but I doubt that will help). I have some banners raised, and sit at 21 troops (start infantry + 8 banners). No loans. I'm at 3/4/5 tech, and about to raise Admin and Diplo again. Some possible rebels, and 1 stability, but I'm not too worried about that. I am 1 ahead in military tech compared to Ming, but I have a truce with Yeren for 3 more years, with only Korea as my next potential target. I only have 271 development, but I can get 33 from northern Korea if I don't lay waste...

So, what's next? Take those Korea territories, break trib and let the disaster start counting down? No doubt Ming will be 5 by the time I finish with Korea, but I should be able to raise military by that time, or shortly after. Renaissance is also counting down (7%).

 

[Madae]

Actually managed to finish off Korea quickly, and Ming still has only 4 military. I'm at 321 dev, too.

 

[bly08]

At the start, take prestige mission, mil focus, delete fort, hire theologian and morale advisors, do estate interactions, become Ming's tributary. DoW Haixi, stackwipe and siege, DoW Yeren while sieging Haixi. Don't peace out Haixi until having sieged down Yeren. Full annex Haixi, 100 WS of land from Yeren. Raze Girin and whatever you need to stay below 100 OE. DoW Buryatia as soon as CB triggers. Raze everything including the gold province. DoW Korchin, raze everything. Deal with rebels (should only be one stack). DoW Korea, take 100 WS of land/forts. Refuse tributary demands during the war vs. Korea.

In 1452 you should be at mil tech 4v3 vs. Ming with >300 development, no loans, some corruption, low manpower. Build up to forcelimit and DoW Ming as soon as tributary status ends. Frontload battles so they're fought on mil tech 4v3, merc up, spam consolidate/shift consolidate, keep debasing. In 1455-56 you should be able to take close to 100 WS from Ming with ~15 corruption, no loans. Take Beijing, release vassal, money should not be a problem for the rest of the game.

This is the fastest and also easiest opening for Manchu, only requires some army micro. At mil tech 5 Ming gets new infantry units, 4v3 ensures morale and tactics advantage, 6v5 is only tactics advantage.

 

[Madae]

At the start, take prestige mission, mil focus, delete fort, hire theologian and morale advisors, do estate interactions, become Ming's tributary. DoW Haixi, stackwipe and siege, DoW Yeren while sieging Haixi. Don't peace out Haixi until having sieged down Yeren. Full annex Haixi, 100 WS of land from Yeren. Raze Girin and whatever you need to stay below 100 OE. DoW Buryatia as soon as CB triggers. Raze everything including the gold province. DoW Korchin, raze everything. Deal with rebels (should only be one stack). DoW Korea, take 100 WS of land/forts. Refuse tributary demands during the war vs. Korea.

In 1452 you should be at mil tech 4v3 vs. Ming with >300 development, no loans, some corruption, low manpower. Build up to forcelimit and DoW Ming as soon as tributary status ends. Frontload battles so they're fought on mil tech 4v3, merc up, spam consolidate/shift consolidate, keep debasing. In 1455-56 you should be able to take close to 100 WS from Ming with ~15 corruption, no loans. Take Beijing, release vassal, money should not be a problem for the rest of the game.

This is the fastest and also easiest opening for Manchu, only requires some army micro. At mil tech 5 Ming gets new infantry units, 4v3 ensures morale and tactics advantage, 6v5 is only tactics advantage.

This is simply not possible. Sorry. I've played more than a dozen Jianzhou games over the last week or two and no matter how good your luck is, you will not be able to get 300 dev while Ming is still tech 3.

What expansions are you playing with? Have you done this recently? Because this is the same thing I've heard so many people say and it's such a load of crap. Sorry.

Besides, I posted a pic and explained my situation. I would like recommendations on what to do here, not an entire gameplay strategy.

 

[bly08]

You can watch the first video on my twitch channel where i stayed at 104OE after Yeren, lost several battles to Ming and was still able to take 93 warscore from Ming in 1456. You can also look at the screenshots in my Manchu one tag thread for timing. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

[Madae]

You can watch the first video on my twitch channel where i stayed at 104OE after Yeren, lost several battles to Ming and was still able to take 93 warscore from Ming in 1456. You can also look at the screenshots in my Manchu one tag thread for timing. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible.

What expansions are you using?

 

[bly08]

All DLCs except Third Rome

 

[Sfan]

If you don't think you can do it that fast, I'd suggest focusing on Mil and getting Ming with 6 vs 5, AND taking Defensive ideas first and also have the first 2 ideas of Defensive. That's also a good Morale advantage even if less impressive than Mil4 vs Mil3. And that's a lot easier to have enough Dev by that point.

 

[Hessian Mercenary]

This is simply not possible. Sorry. I've played more than a dozen Jianzhou games over the last week or two and no matter how good your luck is, you will not be able to get 300 dev while Ming is still tech 3.

What expansions are you playing with? Have you done this recently? Because this is the same thing I've heard so many people say and it's such a load of crap. Sorry.

Besides, I posted a pic and explained my situation. I would like recommendations on what to do here, not an entire gameplay strategy.

It's a bit rude to come here asking for help and then dismiss the advice of the first person trying to help you as impossible. Maybe it's not those many people talking crap but you lacking the experience to pull it off. Hordes play quite different compared to other countries and it needs some practice to get good with them

about your current situation: you missed the sweet spot of mil tech 4 vs 3 advantage and I suppose you have a truce with Oirat since you took Mongolia. So you don't border any nations you could attack now except Ming. Longer periods of peace are bad for hordes, you might as well attack now. Raise all the banners you can, use estate interactions for free cav and manpower whenever possible, get a general with at least 3 shock pips (better 4), use debasing instead of loans if you need to hire mercs, watch out to only fight battles in open terrain and go straight for Beijing. Keep some diplo points to buy down war exhaustion. Try to avoid losing battles but even if you lose some keep the war going and wait for Mandate to drop. Not much more advice possible here since you're lacking other options (unless you want to no-CB some nation or Sarig has a claim on Chagatai, then you could delay attacking Ming till you have mil tech 6)

 

[swagmeister]

Despite what many say Ming can be beaten at any tech level as Manchu. I did it with matching tech at tech 6 pushing into 7 on my first attempt. Here was the result. https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....078/B456974A7F2AF2D6B7BA0B9FEB851C2603B476AF/
Very messy but it got even easier as the war went on since the event fired halfway through the war. My first few battles were actually losses which I had to recover from since my generals were shit. But banners are great since they don't use manpower to reinforce so it doesn't matter. Just take loans and debase as you need to.

 

[PhoenixG]

imo the disaster is nice and well, but Manchu with around 30k units and a tech advantage is very doable to kick Ming's teeth. Although it will be a bit expensive and you'll take loans/debase, but you'll do get wealthy chinese clay.

 

[makaramus]

thre is a cheesy strategy but since mongolia is %100 dead I doubt if its possible anymore
When you dow oirat if ming didnt allready he will dow them to make tributary too. this causes that ming %100 ignore you until that war is over if you revoke tributary of yourself(and when you do it yourself there will be no truce just a stab hit)

this causes ming to focus on finishing war first AND THEN preparing aganist you AND THEN dowing you... wich makes disaster progress a lot before war start and sometimes even make it trigger way before ming dow you. I managed doing it once thats all ^_^'''

 

[Aepdneds]

You can watch the first video on my twitch channel where i stayed at 104OE after Yeren, lost several battles to Ming and was still able to take 93 warscore from Ming in 1456. You can also look at the screenshots in my Manchu one tag thread for timing. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible.

I just went to your Twitch channel, assuming you're using the same nickname, but could only find a Timurid game. I am not very familiar with Twitch, how do I find it?

 

[bly08]

I'll record something and upload it onto youtube.

 

[Aepdneds]

Thank you

 

[otaats]

1. Pick Jianzhou. You need a good general. If you don't have it, restart.
2. Raise a host. And then set your ruler as general. Hopefully both of your generals will have over 3 shock (and siege always speeds things up). You will have 10 inf and 8 cav after raising a host. Split armies in half because of potential attrition you would suffer, especially northwards. Improve relations with Oirat, marry them, but do not ally them until you're ready to take on Ming.
3. As soon as your armies are set, do not hestitate and annex all of Haixi.
4. Before you peace out with Haixi, declare on Yeren! Carpet siege them, and besiege their capital Miyoo Gasan. Once you feel like you're halfway there, sue Haixi for peace. Take all of their provinces and all the money you can get. Do not raze, only core Girin. Once you take Yeren, take as much as you can but only core Hinggan. Remember that as a horde you need every ducat, so look to take all the money from a country, after you plunder their provinces.
5. You will wait slightly for the 2 required provinces to core. Coring Girin takes more time to finish. That's why you start coring it slightly before Hinggan. This way we only core 2 provinces and get almost all of the others for free once we form Manchu.
6. As soon as you form Manchu, declare on Korchin and take the provinces you have automatic claims on as Manchu. You can take a few extra provinces, raze them for some MP, and return them.
7. Declare and annex entire Buryatia. They have a few provinces that are valuable, one of them producing gold.
8. At this point, you're supposed to still have 10 infantry and 8 cavalry regiments. Korea most likely has around 15k. Their fort on your border will be mothballed for 90% of the time. Declare on Korea as soon as you see the fort is mothballed. Sometimes they man the fort at the exact time you make all those conquests, but they are quick to mothball it again. Take as much as you can (entire Pyongyan, Eastern Korea, and possibly more provinces). Don't worry too much about fighting them in the mountains. Your armies are the strongest in the region, but you need a good leader and smart stack wiping of Korean troops. They reinforce quite a bit, and can become a pain in the a*s if you don't take their border fort immediately.
9. Look at your overall development and act accordingly. With most of Yeren, Haixi, Jurchen, Buryatia and Korea under your belt, you're supposed to have over 300 development (which triggers disaster for Ming at some point once you cancel tributary status).
10. Once you feel like you're ready, cancel tributary and check if Oirat would join your war for Mandate of Heaven. With their aid, the war should be quite easy. Promise them land. Raise Banners up to your force limit and you're all set. Ming looks scary but at the game start they have an abysmal ruler and bad troops that take tons of attrition, so often times you will see that Ming has 0 manpower. Check the ledger at all times. If you attack them while they are level 6, you lose your greatest advantage in early game.

 

[bly08]

I recorded two runs, no commentary. First one was lost since mp4 sucks and OBS stopped recording when I ran out of disk space. Second run is posted here along with the general strategy:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/brief-guide-to-early-game-manchu.1052549/

In the first screenshot I had no loans. In the second (recorded) run Ming was tech 4 when I declared which never happens.