Waking the Tiger and the Rhineland subtree

[NVI]

When the new German focus tree for Waking the Tiger was unveiled in October I thought it was the best focus tree that Paradox had made at that point. But I no longer feel the same, and Waking the Tiger isn't even out yet. That is first and foremost because I feel the total overhaul of the Japanese focus tree significantly raised the bar in terms of what can be expected from an updated focus tree. The big problem of the German focus tree is that the Rhineland subtree has lost much of its appeal going from 1.0 to 1.5.

I'm considering this mainly from single player historical mode perspective though I think much of it holds for ahistorical mode and multiplayer too.

Spoiler: Focus by focus

(ok means functionally ok; not that it should stay exactly the same or in the same spot in a redesigned tree)
Rhineland - ok
Anti-Comintern Pact - historically important, but adds world tension for dubious benefits; could perhaps even be just a decision
Anti-Soviet Pact - interesting ahistorical option, but undercut by the neighbor requirement
War with the USSR - ok, but often comes at a point where it's more efficient to make war goal manually
Befriend Turkey - ok late-game option
Befriend China & Befriend Japan - were always very minor for foci, but now that Japan won't join Axis either these should probably just be decisions (Recall von Falkenhausen vs. double down on supporting China)
Anschluss - ok
Befriend Czechoslovakia - almost useless post-DoD (and especially post-1.4.2) since Czechoslovakia starts with much less fascist support and gains democratic influence from their historical foci (moreover it also gains communist influence if it goes communist; if they go fascist there's no need to work to befriend them since they'll work to befriend you)
Second Vienna Award - a bit different compared to what Hungary's DoD tree has, but not by much; there's no clear division between the two
Alliance with Italy - usually just bypassed
Alliance with Spain - ok late-game option; however the historical AI takes it way too often
Demand Sudetenland - ok
First Vienna Award - bypassed via Hungary's historical DoD focus tree if you wait long enough
Fate of Czechoslovakia - ok
Danzig for Slovakia - one of the best ahistorical options, but risky since Poland has a small chance to refuse if you haven't been able to invite them into Axis yet
Befriend Poland - disconnection with Danzig for Slovakia since you'd like to invite Poland into Axis before Danzig for Slovakia, not after, to remove the risk of failure
Around Maginot - ok
War with France - usually just bypassed
Reassert Eastern Claims - ok
Danzig or War - ok
Operation Weserübung - ok
Demand Slovenia, First Ljubljana Award, Fate of Yugoslavia, Second Ljubljana Award, War with Greece & Fate of Greece - I felt the biggest point of the this alternative path was getting chromium-rich provinces for Plan Z, but those provinces now tend to go to Italy and Bulgaria in the First Ljubljana Award; doesn't seem worth it anymore since Czechoslovakia is now much harder to befriend and Yugoslavia often joins Axis if left alone
Improve National Spirit - ok late-game option

Tl;dr: Many of the foci were decidedly minor to begin with and would be better realized as part of the new decision system, or as part of other countries' focus trees (as is partly the case with DoD trees already). Others have become less appealing with patches and DLCs, DoD in particular. This is partly because of the inherent disconnection between national focus trees and international diplomacy, but it could be mitigated. There aren't many interesting and viable ahistorical options left and I think the subtree falls short of the standard set by the new Japanese focus tree. I also find it curious how it is entirely disconnected from the non-aligned path despite a number of foci for similar goals (e.g. Danzig for Slovakia and Danzig for Guarantees or Anti-Soviet Pact and Central European Alliance foci).

I don't claim to know what fascist focus tree path for Germany should look like, but I feel it would have benefited from a radical redesign just as Japanese focus tree did.

 

[Duke_Dave]

while I like the Monarchist and Democratic trees, I agree the fascist tree should be reworked. It will get a communist tree eventually, so hopefully at that point they rework the fascist one.

 

[Broletariat90]

while I like the Monarchist and Democratic trees, I agree the fascist tree should be reworked. It will get a communist tree eventually, so hopefully at that point they rework the fascist one.

Communist tree doesn't make any sense for Germany.

 

[adam_grif]

Communist tree doesn't make any sense for Germany.

Indeed, although I should point out that it also makes no sense for fascist and communist trees to exist in most of the Commonwealth. Or even the idea of going fully independent, which had some support but was not historically plausible in the time frame yet can be done straight from the start. The mechanics of the game in general also support far more ludicrous things than the focus trees do, like Commie USA in calendar year 1936 through ministers.

 

[Broletariat90]

Indeed, although I should point out that it also makes no sense for fascist and communist trees to exist in most of the Commonwealth. Or even the idea of going fully independent, which had some support but was not historically plausible in the time frame yet can be done straight from the start. The mechanics of the game in general also support far more ludicrous things than the focus trees do, like Commie USA in calendar year 1936 through ministers.

German communists were literally in prison in 1936, at least the far right and left in commonwealth nations were not incarcerated and had freedom of speech.

 

[Duke_Dave]

Communist tree doesn't make any sense for Germany.

It doesn't make much sense in the Japanese case either.

 

[Broletariat90]

It doesn't make much sense in the Japanese case either.

Agreed. Hopefully they see the mistake and scrap it or at least don't add a commie path for Germany.

 

[Archangel85]

Agreed. Hopefully they see the mistake and scrap it or at least don't add a commie path for Germany.

You can just...not play it?

 

[NVI]

You can just...not play it?

While I agree with this sentiment, I find it unfortunate that it's hard to start a thread about German fascist subtree without it becoming a thread about Japanese communist subtree.

 

[Duke_Dave]

Agreed. Hopefully they see the mistake and scrap it or at least don't add a commie path for Germany.

No. Its an option, I prefer this game to be sandbox. Regarding the fascist tree, I think it would be nice to see it a bit disentangled, it feels a bit chaotic - optics wise.

 

[Sir Garnet]

The concept ot the "Authoritarian Democrat" party from Kaiserreich captures better than vanilla the spectrum of governments of various nominal leanings but all shareing a practice and often an inclination to trample over laws and rights to impose control in the name of defense. The various measures and methods adopted could mostly be captured by one tree, with local variations.

 

[Captured Joe]

and Yugoslavia often joins Axis if left alone

And usually this happens because Britain DoWs them out of the blue even if they're going Democratic!

 

[Tempestra]

Or even the idea of going fully independent, which had some support but was not historically plausible in the time frame yet can be done straight from the start.

Depends what you mean by "independent". There was little support for removing the Queen as HOS, but both Canada and Australia aspired to become independent international actors with friendly-but-equal ties to the UK, and indeed had basically already become so by mid war.

 

[TheDungen]

My guess is that Germany will see a commie tree if there is a timeline extension the night of long knives is the perfect place to place such a division.

 

[Tempestra]

if there is a timeline extension

Firstly, I doubt we'll ever see a timeline extension.

Secondly, what you suggested is the kind of thing Paradox, as a policy, never covers.

 

[Lord of Beer]

There is still a big balance problem with the trees, which is that sitting on air production is often a lot better than doing any focii once you're up and running. That continuous focus needs to be nerfed to 5-10% down from 20% right now, or ideally eliminated from the game entirely.

Look at Multiplayer, you'll have Canada, UK, USA, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia sitting on air production from 1938 onwards if they've finished the critical focii and are still alive.

The wars are won and dominated in the air, which is even more silly that Hungary and Canada are the only ones using the planes, and that due to bugs you can't even see the makeup of Allied planes in the airzones above you!

 

[Finkmilkana]

Firstly, I doubt we'll ever see a timeline extension.

Secondly, what you suggested is the kind of thing Paradox, as a policy, never covers.

While I agree it probably wont happen due to the timeline, the night of long knives was conceptually not that different from stalins purges. It was mainly an internal power struggle to solidify the rule.

 

[Fulmen]

There is still a big balance problem with the trees, which is that sitting on air production is often a lot better than doing any focii once you're up and running. That continuous focus needs to be nerfed to 5-10% down from 20% right now, or ideally eliminated from the game entirely.

Look at Multiplayer, you'll have Canada, UK, USA, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia sitting on air production from 1938 onwards if they've finished the critical focii and are still alive.

The wars are won and dominated in the air, which is even more silly that Hungary and Canada are the only ones using the planes, and that due to bugs you can't even see the makeup of Allied planes in the airzones above you!

This.

Many MP mods and rule sets are already omitting Air Production entirely because it's just a no-brainer focus to sit on after 1939.

Doesn't matter if you nerf it to -5%, it'd still render everything else useless post-'39. The only real choice is to remove it from the game.

 

[NVI]

There is still a big balance problem with the trees, which is that sitting on air production is often a lot better than doing any focii once you're up and running. That continuous focus needs to be nerfed to 5-10% down from 20% right now, or ideally eliminated from the game entirely.

Look at Multiplayer, you'll have Canada, UK, USA, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia sitting on air production from 1938 onwards if they've finished the critical focii and are still alive.

The wars are won and dominated in the air, which is even more silly that Hungary and Canada are the only ones using the planes, and that due to bugs you can't even see the makeup of Allied planes in the airzones above you!

While this seems like a good suggestion in terms of game balance, I've seen this same comment in probably a dozen threads by now and it is only tangentially connected to the topic.

 

[JohnnyDepressio]

My guess is that Germany will see a commie tree if there is a timeline extension the night of long knives is the perfect place to place such a division.

The night of the long knifes had nothing to do with communist or socialists. It was a conflict between different fascists in the NSDAP.

EDIT:
If we had a timeline extenison (lets say 1933 start) a communist tree would make sense.