Waffen SS mini-mod...?

[unmerged(63886)]

Okey, thought of this for a while:

Everything is going historical; Soviet Union steamrolling towards Berlin from the east, allies smashing their way through France and Italy... And then, when the hope is out for Germany, German High Command surrenders, but not the SS!

If the conditions are right (which are those conditions, btw?), a state formed by the leaders of the SS is formed behind the enemy lines, perhaps in the alps as it was intended to be.

So, that's the premisses of this - possible - modification:

But what's needs to be done?

First of all, a new nation must be formed:

- Which name should it have?
- How large area would they have or should that differ game from game?

Then one need to have ministers; perhaps the easist solution would be appointing Heinrich Himmler as Head of State... But then? I have no clue...

And leaders, but that will probably be of less concern, regarding how many SS-leaders it was...

Then one would need GFX; luckily I have flags, shields and counters for a SS-state, but sure, I belive it should have a skin, event pics, model pics...

What more? Yes, events... Suggestions?

I'm just spawning a little. This isn't any hard work to do, but sure, it would bring some (a)historical flavour to the game if atleast the possibilty is there to have organised nazi's who doesn't stop fighting when Germany is annexed.

Thoughts?

 

[unmerged(12621)]

Wouldn't that be a lot of work put into a "nation" which would probably end up existing for all of two weeks?
_____
rezaf

 

[unmerged(63886)]

Wouldn't that be a lot of work put into a "nation" which would probably end up existing for all of two weeks?
_____
rezaf

No idea. One could always having a lots of events giving support, techs, money whatever and perhaps even have a peace with allies. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

 

[unmerged(9599)]

Perhaps an event for Germany something along the lines of prepare a last stand and if they choose it the alps province get level 4 or 5 fortresses.

Also give the SS units ahead of the curve tech wise. To simulate that they got the best the wehrmacht could give.

 

[unmerged(63886)]

Perhaps an event for Germany something along the lines of prepare a last stand and if they choose it the alps province get level 4 or 5 fortresses.

Also give the SS units ahead of the curve tech wise. To simulate that they got the best the wehrmacht could give.

Perhaps that's a better way to deal with it and demands less work.

 

[JFeatherston]

The SS was equipped no differently from the Wehrmacht

 

[Cap`n Jim]

So, that's the premisses of this - possible - modification:

But what's needs to be done?

First of all, a new nation must be formed:

- Which name should it have?
- How large area would they have or should that differ game from game?

Then one need to have ministers; perhaps the easist solution would be appointing Heinrich Himmler as Head of State... But then? I have no clue...

Call it 'Alpenfestung. '


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Redoubt

As for ministers, Himmler would be a good idea as of head of state, perhaps with a cadre of SS officers, and some of the more hardcore National Socialist Wehrmacht generals.

The SS was equipped no differently from the Wehrmacht

The Waffen-SS got priority for new weaponry and equipment, as they were considered the elite forces of the Reich, particularly the SS Panzer divisions once they were formed.

 

[Ostheim]

The SS was equipped no differently from the Wehrmacht

Up until 1941 they often had captured equipment or standard load outs. However, the earlier SS divisions that became Panzer divisions received more tanks, more weapons, and better ones like Nebelwerfers. These divisions were often used to spearhead attacks. Equipment was variable and often depended on need, but some Waffen-SS units certainly did receive some prioritized treatment.

 

[unmerged(51140)]

The Waffen-SS got priority for new weaponry and equipment, as they were considered the elite forces of the Reich, particularly the SS Panzer divisions once they were formed.

That is true for like 2 or 3 divisions or even less only a few regiments of the entire Waffen SS in the first two years of the war maybe. 80% of the later units were standard equipped, lacked good leadership and had horrible casualty numbers.
Their "Elite" Status was 99% propaganda which the allies chose to believe too on the sole basis of some heavy resistance the ran into. That this heavy resistance was bought by a casualty number no Wehrmacht commander would ever have considered taking because the cause wouldn't have justified the means is chosen to be ignored.
I've read quite a few books about commanders mentioning the Waffen SS as well as books about the Waffen SS itself.
The summary was in every case that the Waffen SS was just a political instrument that had well trained soldiers but very bad officers and leadership. The only thing the Waffen SS stood out was their number of committed war crimes which was much higher than the Wehrmacht's. The overall effectiveness was better in a few cases, much worse in others. especially in the later formed SS units solely consisting of not well trained foreign volunteers.
All in all the Waffen SS may deserve the status it has in Vanilla HoI2, just popping up as a name for regular units. The status of Elite, best equipped, best trained is maybe deserved by 1 or two divisions and 1 or two regiments. And that same elite status can be awarded to just as many if not more Wehrmacht units.

I am still amazed every time how many people even in other countries are still victims of NAZI propaganda.

Waffen SS was THE elite force
Rommel was THE tactic genius
Wehrmacht was THE best army
.
.
.

*shakes his head*

 

[Nietzsche]

That is true for like 2 or 3 divisions or even less only a few regiments of the entire Waffen SS in the first two years of the war maybe. 80% of the later units were standard equipped, lacked good leadership and had horrible casualty numbers.
Their "Elite" Status was 99% propaganda which the allies chose to believe too on the sole basis of some heavy resistance the ran into. That this heavy resistance was bought by a casualty number no Wehrmacht commander would ever have considered taking because the cause wouldn't have justified the means is chosen to be ignored.
I've read quite a few books about commanders mentioning the Waffen SS as well as books about the Waffen SS itself.
The summary was in every case that the Waffen SS was just a political instrument that had well trained soldiers but very bad officers and leadership. The only thing the Waffen SS stood out was their number of committed war crimes which was much higher than the Wehrmacht's. The overall effectiveness was better in a few cases, much worse in others. especially in the later formed SS units solely consisting of not well trained foreign volunteers.
All in all the Waffen SS may deserve the status it has in Vanilla HoI2, just popping up as a name for regular units. The status of Elite, best equipped, best trained is maybe deserved by 1 or two divisions and 1 or two regiments. And that same elite status can be awarded to just as many if not more Wehrmacht units.

I am still amazed every time how many people even in other countries are still victims of NAZI propaganda.

Waffen SS was THE elite force
Rommel was THE tactic genius
Wehrmacht was THE best army
.
.
.

*shakes his head*

Well, they held off being attacked from *all sides*, while being short of supply, out-numbered on each front, and with a leader who's military genius rivals that of Italian Defense coordinators...

 

[DeathDemon]

The SS was equipped no differently from the Wehrmacht

Standard German division strengths:

* Army
- Panzer Division 15,000 (162 tanks, 21 assault guns)
- Infantry Division 11,000

* Waffen SS
- Panzer Division 20,000 (162 tanks, 61 assault guns)
- Panzergrenadier Division 17,000 (42 assault guns)

 

[Charle_88]

Well, they held off being attacked from *all sides*, while being short of supply, out-numbered on each front, and with a leader who's military genius rivals that of Italian Defense coordinators...

...and then they lost.

 

[DeathDemon]

But they still performed remarkably well against all odds.

 

[unmerged(42223)]

The orginal poster seems to be thinking about making a 'what if' game scenario. How cares if he populates it with super-human uber-germans ready to 're-take' the world from the foot of the Alps?

I suggest an event to assassinate Hitler then revolt in your new country led by dis-cruntled Generals. A couple of quick follow up events to get the right mix of provinces and add units.

 

[unmerged(63886)]

The orginal poster seems to be thinking about making a 'what if' game scenario. How cares if he populates it with super-human uber-germans ready to 're-take' the world from the foot of the Alps?

I suggest an event to assassinate Hitler then revolt in your new country led by dis-cruntled Generals. A couple of quick follow up events to get the right mix of provinces and add units.

No, no, nothing super über. Just having the historical possible outcome that some people wouldn't settle with the defeat and decide to fight on.

 

[unmerged(42223)]

No, no, nothing super über. Just having the historical possible outcome that some people wouldn't settle with the defeat and decide to fight on.

Then possibly earlier than later, cause I think at some point even the surviving Generals lost heart with the hopelessness of the fast developing situation. So before Hitler started knocking them off so Romel can be there.

 

[Cap`n Jim]

That is true for like 2 or 3 divisions or even less only a few regiments of the entire Waffen SS in the first two years of the war maybe. 80% of the later units were standard equipped, lacked good leadership and had horrible casualty numbers.
Their "Elite" Status was 99% propaganda which the allies chose to believe too on the sole basis of some heavy resistance the ran into. That this heavy resistance was bought by a casualty number no Wehrmacht commander would ever have considered taking because the cause wouldn't have justified the means is chosen to be ignored.
I've read quite a few books about commanders mentioning the Waffen SS as well as books about the Waffen SS itself.
The summary was in every case that the Waffen SS was just a political instrument that had well trained soldiers but very bad officers and leadership. The only thing the Waffen SS stood out was their number of committed war crimes which was much higher than the Wehrmacht's. The overall effectiveness was better in a few cases, much worse in others. especially in the later formed SS units solely consisting of not well trained foreign volunteers.
All in all the Waffen SS may deserve the status it has in Vanilla HoI2, just popping up as a name for regular units. The status of Elite, best equipped, best trained is maybe deserved by 1 or two divisions and 1 or two regiments. And that same elite status can be awarded to just as many if not more Wehrmacht units.

I am still amazed every time how many people even in other countries are still victims of NAZI propaganda.

Waffen SS was THE elite force
Rommel was THE tactic genius
Wehrmacht was THE best army
.
.
.

*shakes his head*

The Heer ( the Wehrmacht was the armed forces in general, air, sea, ground ) inflicted far higher casualties than it recieved, and while I'm not saying they were the best army *ever*, they probably were of those fielded in WW2, regardless of the fact that they lost, they accomplished some rather admirable feats, especially when considering they had to operate under the dead hand of Hitler.

The Waffen-SS tended to be, on average, more loyal to the National Socialist cause, therefore less likely to break or waver, and more reliable in the eyes of the High Command, skilled or no, you'd have to be mad to prefer an undedicated soldier over a dedicated, fiercly loyal one.

Oh, and if it's all propaganda, why are the top 80 air aces (probably more) of WW2 all German or Austrian, and why are German tank aces, again, the highest scoring of the war, able to boast kills of such magnitudes as they do, such as with Michael Wittmann?

By the by, I'd consider Manstein or Guderian better generals, while Rommel accomplished some great things, he couldn't make them stick for long, the reasons for that are open to debate, but still.

 

[unmerged(9599)]

event 1
Triggered by the fall of warsaw and poland
Effect fortify and place industry in four or five provinces in the alps

event 2
Triggered by fall of Berlin
Effect delete 20 German divisions and create SS state in alpine provinces which were previously fortified and given industry

Event 3-6
Triggered by event 2
Event for major allies and comintern powers giving previosly fortified provinces to SS state

Event 7
Gives SS state 15 modern infantry or maybe mountain divisions and 5 modern tank divisions all with brigades

 

[Nietzsche]

The Heer ( the Wehrmacht was the armed forces in general, air, sea, ground ) inflicted far higher casualties than it recieved, and while I'm not saying they were the best army *ever*, they probably were of those fielded in WW2, regardless of the fact that they lost, they accomplished some rather admirable feats, especially when considering they had to operate under the dead hand of Hitler.

The Waffen-SS tended to be, on average, more loyal to the National Socialist cause, therefore less likely to break or waver, and more reliable in the eyes of the High Command, skilled or no, you'd have to be mad to prefer an undedicated soldier over a dedicated, fiercly loyal one.

Oh, and if it's all propaganda, why are the top 80 air aces (probably more) of WW2 all German or Austrian, and why are German tank aces, again, the highest scoring of the war, able to boast kills of such magnitudes as they do, such as with Michael Wittmann?

By the by, I'd consider Manstein or Guderian better generals, while Rommel accomplished some great things, he couldn't make them stick for long, the reasons for that are open to debate, but still.

In the allies Defense, one must remember: Germany was fighting the war 1939-1945. of course their pilots/tankers will have more kills. They've had more to shoot at.

 

[DeathDemon]

The Germans didn't rotate their experienced pilots. So where an American or British ace would go and instruct student pilots on how to best survive and shoot down krauts, the German pilots stayed at the front until they were either dead or the war was over. Naturally, some of them accumulated impressive numbers of kills.

Still, the feats that Marseille and Hartmann pulled off can't just be explained by not rotating them. They were exceptional pilots, some of the best in the world.