WAD: Selected Lineages and Individualism?

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thErgonomic

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If your main species is individualistic you get a weight bonus for drawing Selected Lineages tech which unlocks the policy by the same name. But if you enable the policy when you are individualistic you get and additional -5% to happiness and if you are a fanatic individualist you get -10% to happiness. Same applies to the followup tech Capacity Booster.
This just seems extremely illogical to me. If I'm individualist I'm more likely to receive the tech, but I'd be better off no being one when I'm using the tech.
I'd really like to hear the reasoning for this decicion.
 
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thErgonomic

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I hate to bump this and I'll do it just once, but am I the only one who finds this whole situation odd?
Additionally the isn't the idea of promoting certain above others completely according the individualist ethos and more against the collectivist ethos which purports that all the members of the society are equal?
 

macd21

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My reading: an individualist society is more likely to have people who see the value of the tech, but at the same time society as a whole disapproves of its use.

Think about it: individualist societies are (in theory) meritocracies. Thus the value of the tech - it increases your 'merit.' But it also threatens to create a genetic elite, a caste system that is contrary to individualist ethics.
 
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If your main species is individualistic you get a weight bonus for drawing Selected Lineages tech which unlocks the policy by the same name. But if you enable the policy when you are individualistic you get and additional -5% to happiness and if you are a fanatic individualist you get -10% to happiness. Same applies to the followup tech Capacity Booster.
This just seems extremely illogical to me. If I'm individualist I'm more likely to receive the tech, but I'd be better off no being one when I'm using the tech.
I'd really like to hear the reasoning for this decicion.

Yeah, I agree this seems counter-intuitive. Either get rid of the happiness malus or get rid of the weighting for the tech. Having both is a bit strange right now.
 
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macd21

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Additionally the isn't the idea of promoting certain above others completely according the individualist ethos and more against the collectivist ethos which purports that all the members of the society are equal?

Also no, you have this backwards. Individualists hold that everyone is equal, collectivists are hierarchical.
 
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thErgonomic

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Thanks. We'll have a look at it.
Thanks.
Think about it: individualist societies are (in theory) meritocracies. Thus the value of the tech - it increases your 'merit.' But it also threatens to create a genetic elite, a caste system that is contrary to individualist ethics.
Meritocracy is not equal to individualism. You become and individual at the point of your "conception" and if your parents had a certain genetic aptitude for a certain role in the society then they were better for that role than other individuals that didn't have that aptitude.
And since the advantage is genetical it can be passed on to you and then you too have the advantage all the way from birth.
Also no, you have this backwards. Individualists hold that everyone is equal, collectivists are hierarchical.
Sorry to bring political terms into this, but socialism and its evolution communist claim that every one is equal. Heck one of the names for Soviet Union where I'm from was Peoples Collective. Capitalism on the other hand claims the individuals will rise above other other individuals in their fields because nobody is inherently equal and some people are just better than others..
And yes there are other types of individualism and collectivism, those two were just what came to my mind.
 
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Archonsod

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Sorry to bring political terms into this, but socialism and its evolution communist claim that every one is equal. Heck one of the names for Soviet Union where I'm from was Peoples Collective. Capitalism on the other hand claims the individuals will rise above other other individuals in their fields because nobody is inherently equal and some people are just better than others..
And yes there are other types of individualism and collectivism, those two were just what came to my mind.

Collectivism is authoritarian (state before individual rights) while the individualists are libertarian (rights of the individual before the state). Since the Selected Lineage policy is effectively a breeding program it makes sense that the individualists would have a problem with it.
 
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Collectivism is authoritarian (state before individual rights) while the individualists are libertarian (rights of the individual before the state).
It is right that that's basically how Stellaris defines, which is why I don't see why they don't just call it a Dictatorial - Democratic axis or something like that.
As it would be much clearer as both Collectivism and individualism can mean multiple things (some of which even contradict each other (like horizontal and vertical collectivism), whilst a lot of them aren't stimulated in game (like nationalism or economical collectivism).
And it also would make the game seem less like cold war propaganda.

EDIT: Or they could alternatively have triangulated the axis into by splitting collectivism into horizontal and vertical variants, but that might have ruined the UI or something like that.
 
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Collectivism is authoritarian (state before individual rights) while the individualists are libertarian (rights of the individual before the state). Since the Selected Lineage policy is effectively a breeding program it makes sense that the individualists would have a problem with it.
But there are degrees on how much one puts the state before his or her rights. That's why we have fanatic degrees of ethoses. I do agree that a Fanatic Individualist nor a Fanatic Collectivist would tolerate selected breeding, but I think that a Individualist and a Collectivits would. I thinks that libertarianism could be described as Fanatic Indivisualist, Materialist and Marxism could be described as Fanatic Collectivist, Materialist, Militarist, Xenophile (Yes Marxism uses too many ethos points, but the whole International Workers Revolution kinda needs it.).

It is right that that's basically how Stellaris defines, which is why I don't see why they don't just call it a Dictatorial - Democratic axis or something like that.
As it would be much clearer as both Collectivism and individualism can mean multiple things (some of which even contradict each other (like horizontal and vertical collectivism), whilst a lot of them aren't stimulated in game (like nationalism or economical collectivism).
And it also would make the game seem less like cold war propaganda.

EDIT: Or they could alternatively have triangulated the axis into by splitting collectivism into horizontal and vertical variants, but that might have ruined the UI or something like that.

True, but I find the whole vertical/horizontal axis can somewhat be described with the other ethos aspects.
 

macd21

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Meritocracy is not equal to individualism. You become and individual at the point of your "conception" and if your parents had a certain genetic aptitude for a certain role in the society then they were better for that role than other individuals that didn't have that aptitude.
And since the advantage is genetical it can be passed on to you and then you too have the advantage all the way from birth.

Sorry to bring political terms into this, but socialism and its evolution communist claim that every one is equal. Heck one of the names for Soviet Union where I'm from was Peoples Collective. Capitalism on the other hand claims the individuals will rise above other other individuals in their fields because nobody is inherently equal and some people are just better than others..
And yes there are other types of individualism and collectivism, those two were just what came to my mind.

That may be how the terms are used in the real world, but that's not how they are used in the game. In Stellaris, collectism =/= socialism (or communism).

In the game, 'individualist' is about equality, the rights of the individual etc, In an individualist society, someone can advance through merit, so it makes sense that selected lineages would be valued, but at the same time it would upset people that some members of society get an unfair advantage.

Collectivist societies (in the game) are more accepting of inequality, but at the same time selected lineages would be less beneficial - the elites don't need the boost, as their position is already secure, while the rest simply wouldn't have access to the technology.
 
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That may be how the terms are used in the real world, but that's not how they are used in the game. In Stellaris, collectism =/= socialism (or communism).

In the game, 'individualist' is about equality, the rights of the individual etc, In an individualist society, someone can advance through merit, so it makes sense that selected lineages would be valued, but at the same time it would upset people that some members of society get an unfair advantage.

Collectivist societies (in the game) are more accepting of inequality, but at the same time selected lineages would be less beneficial - the elites don't need the boost, as their position is already secure, while the rest simply wouldn't have access to the technology.
I didn't mean that all collectivism is socialism, nor communism. I meant that in the terms of Ethos socialism and communism would have collectivism as one of their describing ethos options among others. Or do you disagree on this point?

In my opinion Individualist and Collectivist societies would accept incentives for selected lineages for the good of the society, but Fanatic Individualists and Fanatic Collectivists wouldn't as it would give and unfair advantage to certain individuals or promote them above others.
Individuals still believe that there should be a community or as it put in the Ethos description: "Community is a means to an end, not the end itself. Only by empowering the individual to reach their maximum potential do we achieve true freedom. Freedom of thought, of speech, of movement, of trade."

In my opinion Fanatic Individualism and Fanatic Collectivism are as far from Individualism and Collectivism as the latter are from neutrality. Or Fanatic Individualism and Fanatic Collectivism are both as from neutrality as Individuality and Collectivism are from each other. Remember that neither Fanatic Ethos can be an Oligarchy while the non-Fanatic Ethoses can be Oligarchies. This is why I like the Ethos system a lot since it allows degrees of fanaticism vs non-fanatism.

What I would do about the policies purely from a fluff stand point would be:
Selected Lineages:
"Careful reproductive planning should be incentivized, lest we waste valuable genetic legacies."
-5% Happiness if Fanatic Individualist or Fanatic Collectivist
Since in my opinion if the planning is merely incentivized and not forced and done to benefit the society then Individualists and Collectivists wouldn't probably have a problem with it.

Capacity Boosters:
"We leave nothing to chance, no matter the cost. Through exacting curation of DNA banks do we build the leaders of tomorrow."
-5% Happiness if Individualist or Collectivist
-10% Happiness if Fanatic Individualist or Fanatic Collectivist
On the other hand with Capacity Booster I'd think that even Individuallists and Collectivists would have a problem since the orders on with whom one is allowed to reproduce start coming from the goverment for the good of the goverment.
 
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Archonsod

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In my opinion Individualist and Collectivist societies would accept incentives for selected lineages for the good of the society, but Fanatic Individualists and Fanatic Collectivists wouldn't as it would give and unfair advantage to certain individuals or promote them above others.
If you check the tech description it states it's a breeding program applied to your leaders - you're not giving someone an unfair advantage, you're literally deciding on your leaders before they're even born. I think you're getting a bit too caught up in the definitions of the ethos - note it's deliberately loosely defined; a collectivist society could be a Marxist society, it could be a hive mind. I'd guess the intention is to cover as many of the stereotypical sci-fi societies as possible.
So the reason it wouldn't work in individualists but would work for collectivists is actually quite simple. Both collectivist ethos have one thing in common - it's a society that through some means or method believes in a common goal. Individualists societies on the other hand don't have such a unity of purpose.
You can see the happiness penalty arising simply because somewhere in your society the individual goal is being overridden by the collective goal; whether that's because your populace resent the government dictating who they can and can't have children with or because the children designated from birth to run the corporation are unhappy they can't follow their dreams of being train drivers is up to you to rationalise in accordance with how you view your race's society. The important thing, and the reason for the penalty, is that this is not the normal state of affairs for your population. Collectivists avoid it on the other hand because having the collective goal override the individual goal is par for the course in their society, so even if it were one in which an individual could/would be unhappy at having to serve the greater good rather than themselves since this is already happening at all levels of the society any discontent arising from the adoption of a selective breeding program wouldn't be significant.
 

BrokenSky

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I hate to bump this and I'll do it just once, but am I the only one who finds this whole situation odd?
Additionally the isn't the idea of promoting certain above others completely according the individualist ethos and more against the collectivist ethos which purports that all the members of the society are equal?

I dunno. I could see it being done by collectivists and not by individualists, or by individualists and not collectivists (depending on what it's an abstract representation of and on when collectivist and individualist are meant to be - which still isn't really that clear). (I'm quite a bit less than 50% sure, but I would guess that perhaps the devs while making various techs, fluff, events etc. also may have had slightly different ideas? It would make sense that things like this might happen if that were the case... But yeah that's a complete guess.)
 
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