WAD: Prewar and Early Tanks have wrong fuel/supply costs

[unmerged(13914)]

Prewar and Early Tanks have wrong fuel/supply costs

I think this has to be a bug.

The first two models in the Panzer file (0 and 1) look like this:

# 0 - Pre-War tank
model = {
cost = 14
buildtime = 180
manpower = 7
maxspeed = 6
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 3
airdefence = 1
softattack = 4
hardattack = 4
airattack = 2
transportweight = 30
supplyconsumption = 2
fuelconsumption = 20
speed_cap_art = 10
speed_cap_eng = 10
speed_cap_at = 10
speed_cap_aa = 10
}
# 1 - Early Tank (MG)
model = {
cost = 16
buildtime = 150
manpower = 7
maxspeed = 8
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 4
airdefence = 1
softattack = 5
hardattack = 4
airattack = 2
transportweight = 30
supplyconsumption = 10
fuelconsumption = 2
speed_cap_art = 10
speed_cap_eng = 10
speed_cap_at = 10
speed_cap_aa = 10
}

Look closely and you'll see that the fuel consumption for the model 0 tank division is 20, while the supply consumption for the model 1 tank division is 10.

While some fuel consumption figures were definitely bumped up for 1.05, I think these are accidental. They look like they each picked up an extra "0". Easy to fix, but important, especially for minor nations.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

I pointed this out the same day 1.05b came out (along with other irregularities in the panzer.txt file). The supply and fuel costs of the pre-war and early-tanks were not considered to be bugged. The only changes were made to the advanced heavy tanks (as is seen in the new panzer.txt file).

I still agree that these values are rather out of proportion. However, since no sensible player would field a large quantity of such low-grade tanks, this would usually not be a problem.

 

[unmerged(13914)]

Sigh. Okay, if it isn't bugged, there must be some kind of rationale. But I can't imagine what it is. Can you point to where your question was answered the first time?

 

[Vulture]

Originally posted by MadViking
I pointed this out the same day 1.05b came out (along with other irregularities in the panzer.txt file). The supply and fuel costs of the pre-war and early-tanks were not considered to be bugged. The only changes were made to the advanced heavy tanks (as is seen in the new panzer.txt file).

I still agree that these values are rather out of proportion. However, since no sensible player would field a large quantity of such low-grade tanks, this would usually not be a problem.

Are you sure about this? I believe this one *is* a bug

 

[unmerged(14035)]

This issue was previously discussed in this thread. A quote from Maximilian I:

regarding pre-war tanks: yes, they used an insane amount of fuel...

This statement, and the fact that he changed the other things that I pointed out, but changed nothing about the pre-war/early tanks, led me to the conclusion that this is WAD.

It would of course be nice if this was fixed (if it's now considered a bug) along with the fuel/supply consumption rates of ships.

 

[Vulture]

Ah ok thx

 

[unmerged(13914)]

What does an FT-17 tankette have in common with a hummingbird?

Not that I would ever criticize a moderator in any way . . .

But after reading the exchange in the original thread, I suspect Maximilian might have answered a little too quickly.

MadViking saw the same thing I did, that the "Grosstraktor" has insane fuel requirements, and I'll bet that the picture that jumped into his mind (at least, it did mine) was of the gigantic "land battleship" kind of WW I tank, the German A7V or equivalent with a crew of 20. It almost seems plausible that something with a pair of really crude 1917-era tractor engines, weighing 40 tons, might eat up vast amounts of fuel. That is what I assume Maximilian was thinking of when he answered.

However, the Prewar Tank and the Early Tank are not actually A7Vs or anything like that. Check in models.csv and you get:

Afghanistan: model 0 = FT-17, model 1 = T-27
Albania: model 0 = Lancia IZ, model 1 = Fiat 3000B
Australia: model 0 = Vickers Mk II, model 1 = Mk VI
Belgium: model 0 = FT-17, model 1 = T-15
Brazil: model 0 = FT-17, model 1 = M2A2
...

There has been a truly fabulous amount of work done in researching the historical tanks available in different countries, and models.csv is very accurate now.

Essentially every model-0 or model-1 tank listed in models.csv is a very light tank, or tankette, most with crews of 2. The M2A2 was built on the same chassis as the Stuart M3 light tank, but had only machineguns instead of a 37mm. The Vickers Mk II (12 tons, crew of 5) probably had the largest crew of any model-0 tank, but it was still a light tank. The Fiat 3000 was a license-built version of the French FT-17; it weighed 7 tons, and had a 35(!) horsepower engine. Other favorites include the U.S. designed "Christie" tank (8 to 10 tons), the Czech CKD (16 tons) . . . you get the idea.

The only tank in the entire file that could qualify as a heavy, gas-guzzling land battleship was New Zealand's "Bob Semple" tank, built by a guy named Bob Semple using a tractor chassis. It weighed 20-25 tons and had a crew of 8, and apart from building 3 or 4 prototypes the Kiwis wisely never let it anywhere near a battlefield.

The fuel requirement of 20 points per day (and about 100 tons per point) would imply that a tank force of 300 FT-17s would consume its own weight in fuel each day. Unlikely, don't you think?

 

[MegaPIMP]

naaa, they must be equiped with flamethrowers!

 

[Vulture]

Ok seems right indeed, I'll lower it.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

Also, the previously stated supply consumption of 10 for the early tanks. Is this reasonable? In my view, supply consists of basically 2 thinks: food and ammunition (plus a lot of minor things like medical supplies, spare parts for vehicles etc). Since the early tank divisions would consist of about the same amount of men as a later tank division, the amount of food consumed per day would be equal. Also, the ammunition consumption would be lower, since the tank guns would be firing lower-calibre ammunition. The only possible explenation would be that these tanks used a considerably larger amount of (expensive) spare parts. I can buy this in part, but I can simply not believe that the supply consumption of one of these tank divisions equals that of 10 battle ships or 3 super-heavy tank divisions.

Suggestions:
Change the fuel consumption for the pre-war tank from 20 to 2 (same as early tank currently has)
Change the supply consumption for the early tank from 10 to 2 (same as pre-war tanks and basic light tanks currently have).

 

[Maximilian I]

no, the values are correct. for example the "Neubeufahrzeug" was a fuel hungry monster.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

no, the values are correct. for example the "Neubeufahrzeug" was a fuel hungry monster.

Actually, the Neubaufahrzeug (the German Early tank) now has a fuel consumption of 2 (which I find highly reasonable). The unrealistic fuel rate is for the the Grosstraktor (the German Pre-war tank).

Though I do not have any exact figures on the fuel consumption of the Neubaufahrzeug, I have found some basic figures for it here. Some basics:

Panzerkampfwagen Neubaufahrzeug VI
Weight: 23 tons
Engine: 290 or 300 horsepower, 12-cylinder
Max speed (road): 30 km/h
Range (road): 120 km
Fuel capacity: 457 liters

While travelling at max speed on roads, the tank consumes around 115 liters of fuel per hour. For a tank division of 300 tanks, this would be around 35,000 liters per hour, or around 30 tons of fuel. Or in HoI terms, this equals around 0.3 fuel per hour, and if you drive for 8 hours this would equal 2.4 fuel/day, which is around what the current panzer.txt gives (it has 2).

I have not found any exact data for the fuel consumption of the Grosstraktor, but I do know that the engine was around 250 horse power and that the total weight of the tank was very similar to the Neubaufahrzeug series. I find it highly likely that the fuel consumption of the Grosstraktor would roughly equal that of the Neubaufahrzeug.

Also, I still have not seen a good answer to the huge supply consumption of the Neubaufahrzeug. Is this meant to simulate spare parts?