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Third Angel

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3rd Feb beta: the archbishopric of England

So, this is how it happened. I play a game as the Duke of Berwick. I didn't notice at first what was happening in England because I was busy spreading rebellion in Scotland by excommuniating the king, to eventually usurp his title more easily. Any way, at the same time, the same thing (with a heretical king) was happening in England where a huge civil war was taking place. The funny part came when the last vassal to make peace with the De Normandie was the archbishop of Sussex (who happened to be some cousin of mine, I was the papal controller after all...).
I really don't know how this cousin came to hold a claim on England, but he sure had it since the peace-terms made him King of England. At least, this is what I thought at first when I saw his face in a red-golden circle with a small crown beneath. Actually, he was, and still is, Archbishop of England, and bishop of three-four counties in the area.
I don't know if this is really a bug, but it seems weird that either he didn't become a secular lord, or kept his archbishopric and gave the realm to some courtier of his (or some cousin...). I still don't know about his succession since he is a young man, but I fear that, now that England is considered an archbishopric, the next "kings" will be archbishops...
Has anyone ever seen something like this?
 
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unmerged(21937)

Your Industrial Friend
Nov 15, 2003
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If a bishop or archbishop takes "king of England" in peace, he should become "archbishop of England". A ruler does not change his realm type when he gets titles in peace.

Inheritance of England in your game will go according to normal ecclestical system and England will remain an archbishopric.
 

Third Angel

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Byakhiam said:
Inheritance of England in your game will go according to normal ecclestical system and England will remain an archbishopric.

It is so, but I don't think that's so cool, and it is definitely unhistorical. Kingship was secular by definition in the CK era. Kings were to be the secular arms ot the Church, but there never was a king to claim himself Pope, or an archbishop calling himself a king, it would have made no sense...
 

Grosshaus

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Third Angel said:
It is so, but I don't think that's so cool, and it is definitely unhistorical. Kingship was secular by definition in the CK era. Kings were to be the secular arms ot the Church, but there never was a king to claim himself Pope, or an archbishop calling himself a king, it would have made no sense...

Note that the archbishop didn't become king of england but as a holder of the king title remained archbishop of england. A moslem guy can't become a king of England either but if he gets lucky he can become Emir (or whatever is the equivalent) of England if he holds the rigth title.
 

Third Angel

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The difference is that the emirate of England would be outside christiandom, and because of that would not care at all about secular arms and Church, and would surely be an easy target for christian lords in the area; while an archbishopric of England cannot easily be targeted and simply has no reason to exist. Their was a great difference between temporal and spiritual powers at this time. Popes might crown false emperors, Emperors could have false popes elected but you didn't "mix"...

By the way, what does "WAD:" means?
 

unmerged(1047)

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Feb 21, 2001
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means working as designed.

I actually gave a king title to an archbishop vassal last night, though, and I believe I saw his son inherit it as a king... it was certainly a kingdom when it got around to the next generation, because I was able to inherit it back by marrying the only daughter. It only stayed an archbishopric for the lifetime of the first archbishop who had the king-level title.

(I did this with the Archbishop of Marrakesh, becoming Archbishop (king) of Mauretania... his son was King of Mauretania. It was kinda odd.)
 

Third Angel

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Sheridan said:
It only stayed an archbishopric for the lifetime of the first archbishop who had the king-level title.

It didn't go that way in my game where the kingdom of England has been inherited according to elective law by ecclesiastic-education courtiers for nearly a century now. The difference must be that my archbishop conquered his title by force.

Now if this is "working as designed", it's ok for me, I was just surprised and wondering if it had been meant to happen this way...