Vytautus Didysis and Wladyslaw II Jagiello

[Jools]

the relationship between King-Duke (after Vytautas/Witold left this world and the unification opposition lost it's influence) was Father-Son.

So, when the King died in Poland the crown was offered to Kazimierz Jagiellonczyk grand duke of Lithuania -who at first refused because the Polish King was not an absolute rule whilst the Grand Duke was.

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Crook
Depends. Lithuania was definitely independent. Orleanais wasn't.

If so, why Lithuanians consider Jagiello the great traitor?

 

[unmerged(1878)]

I don't think I need to argue that Lithuania and Poland were completely seperate until the Union of Lublin. Even both countries having the same monarch does not necessarily make them united.

I also do not think that Lithuania needs to be weakened. Considering the religious/cultural revolts and somewhat lackluster economy that Lithuania already has, I think it's weak enough as it is. What it DOES need is more events and leaders. Specifically, Witold and Vytautas should both be military leaders <both were present at the Battle of Tannenberg to secure Lithuania and Poland's victory>.

Jagiello should also probably be a leader due to his extensive experiences in battle. The fact is, Lithuanians, did not fight as fur-clad savages in an unruly mob and end up beating the Germans and the Tatars. Lithuania's military strength needs to be represented, as well as Poland's.

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by TheLotus
Jagiello should also probably be a leader due to his extensive experiences in battle. The fact is, Lithuanians, did not fight as fur-clad savages in an unruly mob and end up beating the Germans and the Tatars. Lithuania's military strength needs to be represented, as well as Poland's.

Of course it does. However it is overrated while Poland underrated one

BTW: wasn't Vytautas and Witold the same person?

 

[unmerged(1878)]

No no no, Vytautas and Wladyslaw are the same person. Witold is the nephew or brother of Vytautas, I forget which one.

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by TheLotus
No no no, Vytautas and Wladyslaw are the same person. Witold is the nephew or brother of Vytautas, I forget which one.

So Vytautas = Jogaila/Jagiello?

 

[unmerged(1878)]

No, sorry I misspoke <or mistyped>. What I meant to say was Jagiello/Jogaila and Wladyslaw are the same person. Vytautas ruled several generations after Jagiello ascended to the Grand Duchy. My mistake. But, Vytautas and Witold were not the same person.

 

[pithorr]

Hm, after some research, I've found this site
It seems that Witold = Vytautas

 

[unmerged(1878)]

Indeed you are correct. It appears Witold is either the Polish, Slavic or German name for Vytautas. I had been basing my earlier claims upon a book that had cited "Vytautas and Witold both participating in the Battle of Tannenberg". I was misinformed.

 

[Halibutt]

I think that problem with Poland being too weak could be easily changed by boosting the salt price. AFAIK until XVII century, salt mines in Wieliczka and Bochnia brought polish kings some thirty - fourty percent of income.
This doesn't change the fact, that Lithuania is a little bit too strong.
Cheers

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Halibutt
I think that problem with Poland being too weak could be easily changed by boosting the salt price. AFAIK until XVII century, salt mines in Wieliczka and Bochnia brought polish kings some thirty - fourty percent of income.

I've already done it in the beginning...
However you cannot set them too high, remembering the inflict on the othe countries...