von Mackensen as coup leader. Opinions?

[Lumpy]

Whatever happened to historical plausibility? While I welcome the much needed German focus tree overhaul, I think von Mackensen is possibly the worst choice for an anti Nazi coup leader. They might aswell have picked Göring for that. Was any research done about him, or did he win the devs over the moment they saw his silly hat?

Mackensen actually held Hitler in quite high esteem, and tended to blame 'misconducting' party officials for any crimes committed by the regime, and he often was in denial about Hitler's part in them (hint for you, August: he gave the order, you lackwit!). Also, he wasn't even field marshal at that point. His role was reduced to that of a figurehead instrumentalized by the regime, people even mocked him for that by calling him "Reichstafelaufsatz" (German for "Reich centrepiece"). He also strongly condemned the attempted assassination of the 20th July in 1944. He was quite the Hitler fanboy. That should really disqualify him from being considered as a leader of armed resistance against Hitler, shouldn't it?

I know this game is to a large extend about alternative history, but it really bugs me that this term is used to justify fantasies that have nothing to do with the actual historical possibilities during that time frame. Moreover, there were actual Wehrmacht officers who put their lives at risk by trying to topple Hitler in 1938 during the "Oster conspiracy", like von Braunitsch and Beck. Like most Wehrmacht officers, they also had monarchist sentiments, so they would be more realistic choices and would still provide the possibility of a restoration of the monarchy.

Am I the only one that is irritated by this decision? Shouldn't alternate history be about delving into actually possible alternative outcomes, rather than complete fantasy? Opinions?

 

[Shatterfury]

We can restore the Austro-Hungarian Empire and you are complaining about this minor detail ?
At the very least a Wehrmacht coup was possible and somewhat likely unlike the restoration of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

But yeah, I get your gist, maybe they could just let a Wehrmacht emblem there as the leader until the Kaiser is restored or a new chancellor elected.

 

[Gurkhal]

In all honestly I know to Little about this guy to say something either way. I just think that I know he was big in the Reichswehr and that he supposedly favored cooperation with the Sovjet Union against Poland and, I would assume, the Western Powers. And I would think he was pretty revanschistic as well.

But if there are alternatives better suited than him I wouldn't mind if he was changed. Although in all honestly his presence don't break my day either.

 

[Lumpy]

We can restore the Austro-Hungarian Empire and you are complaining about this minor detail ?
At the very least a Wehrmacht coup was possible and somewhat likely unlike the restoration of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

But yeah, I get your gist, maybe they could just let a Wehrmacht emblem there as the leader until the Kaiser is restored or a new chancellor elected.

Don't even get me started on A-H... but yeah, we wouldn't even need an abstraction like an emblem. They could just take one of the various officers that were part of the Oster conspiracy. Some of them are even actual leaders that are already in the game as commanders and staff advisors. The thing for me is, it doesn't bug me that it's not one of those guys, what bugs me is that Mackensen was a staunch supporter of Hitler. Him being a coup leader against Hitler is a completely ridiculous notion.

 

[aono]

Mackensen actually held Hitler in quite high esteem, and tended to blame 'misconducting' party officials for any crimes committed by the regime, and he often was in denial about Hitler's part in them (hint for you, August: he gave the order, you lackwit!).

I believe it's where history became alt-history - von Mackensen decided that Hitler isn't worth his respect and should be removed, when some generals and, mhm, Konteradmirals came to him with such offer and agreed to became figurehead.
Never thought him as leader, only as a talking head for fellow officers.

 

[hkrommel]

Paradox may have chosen to go this route since he's already the failed-Rhineland-coup leader in a popular mod.

 

[Alliegorical]

It seems there are a lot of conflicting accounts about von Mackensen's feelings toward the Nazi regime. What we know for sure however is that the Nazis didn't trust von Mackensen. So whether a case can be made that von Mackensen wouldn't have led a coup like this, a case can also be made that he would, which for an exercise in fiction is good enough IMO. It doesn't need to be certain (if it was certain, he'd have actually done it IRL), it just needs to be plausible.

And he does have that sick hat.

 

[mursolini]

Mackensen actually held Hitler in quite high esteem, and tended to blame 'misconducting' party officials for any crimes committed by the regime, and he often was in denial about Hitler's part in them (hint for you, August: he gave the order, you lackwit!). Also, he wasn't even field marshal at that point. His role was reduced to that of a figurehead instrumentalized by the regime, people even mocked him for that by calling him "Reichstafelaufsatz" (German for "Reich centrepiece").
He also strongly condemned the attempted assassination of the 20th July in 1944. He was quite the Hitler fanboy. That should really disqualify him from being considered as a leader of armed resistance against Hitler, shouldn't it?

Nope. Totalitarian states don`t really have public opposition.

I know this game is to a large extend about alternative history, but it really bugs me that this term is used to justify fantasies that have nothing to do with the actual historical possibilities during that time frame. Moreover, there were actual Wehrmacht officers who put their lives at risk by trying to topple Hitler in 1938 during the "Oster conspiracy", like von Braunitsch and Beck. Like most Wehrmacht officers, they also had monarchist sentiments, so they would be more realistic choices and would still provide the possibility of a restoration of the monarchy.

Am I the only one that is irritated by this decision? Shouldn't alternate history be about delving into actually possible alternative outcomes, rather than complete fantasy? Opinions?

He was an actual public figure, connected to German military. He was a popular general and monarchis. He supported Hindenburg over Hitler. The "actual Oster conspiracy officers" needed the public figure, liked by enough people, otherwise their chances to hold power were closer to 0, and Nazis would recapture power, simply because you can`t occupy Germany with 100k army, considering the sheer number of Nazi paramilitaries.

He is good for several reasons: "Democratic" coup makes zero sense. Because they already lost in 1933, and didn`t have popular support to defend Wiemar republic from far better position. Commies were the runner-ups in 1933 elections and were decimated by Nazis. The option of military officers finding a popular and familiar figurehead to lead their revolt actually makes sense. How much sense does it make for von Braunitsch or von Beck to be public leaders?

 

[Hopit]

How can you say no to this face?

 

[Lumpy]

Nope. Totalitarian states don`t really have public opposition.

Uhm, what? I am not sure what you are referring to. Nobody forced von Mackensen to condemn the assassination attempt, or to be instrumentalized by the Nazi regime. He could just have kept a low profile. It's not like they forced him at gunpoint.

He was an actual public figure, connected to German military. He was a popular general and monarchis. He supported Hindenburg over Hitler. The "actual Oster conspiracy officers" needed the public figure, liked by enough people, otherwise their chances to hold power were closer to 0, and Nazis would recapture power, simply because you can`t occupy Germany with 100k army, considering the sheer number of Nazi paramilitaries.

He is good for several reasons: "Democratic" coup makes zero sense. Because they already lost in 1933, and didn`t have popular support to defend Wiemar republic from far better position. Commies were the runner-ups in 1933 elections and were decimated by Nazis. The option of military officers finding a popular and familiar figurehead to lead their revolt actually makes sense. How much sense does it make for von Braunitsch or von Beck to be public leaders?

von Braunitsch or Beck would have made way better choices, because they would have been essentially the same as von Mackensen: military officers that would only hold power during a transitional period after a coup. The only difference is that they actually tried to oust Hitler, while von Mackensen was quite fond of him. Also, Braunitsch and Beck were no democrats. I don't know where you got this from.

 

[JerkyJerry]

IMHO in the grand scheme of things it means very little.
Hopefully someone will be able to make a mod so that those who disagree will get to have the man they want at the helm regardless.

 

[Lysimachos]

Mackensen publicly criticized some of the excesses of the regime, but he always turned a blind eye to Hitler's involvement. That the government didn't fully trust him in 1940 (and then apparently decided to trust him afterall) doesn't change that he was a mostly loyal stooge in 1936. He also approved of Hitler's revision of Versailles, so I would be very much surprised if there was any evidence he had a problem with remilitarizing the Rheinland.

Maybe I could buy him as a pure figurehead who wasn't fully in it and got co-opted when it became clear that the support was there to make the return of monarchy a tangible possibility.

With all that said, I don't actually mind them doing it this way. This isn't truely a ww2 simulation. If we take plausibility too seriously it might take the fun out of alternative history. Which, of course, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. It is how it is, if you look cool on photos and don't ruin your reputation by actually taking public office like Hindenburg, you'll get romanticized.

 

[aono]

Look at that by coup mastermind perspective. Who is the best man to be German leader after coup win and until monarchy restored? Von Braunitsch, who was a major in WW1 and who became general by Hitler only; or von Mackensen, who was field marchal of Wilhelm and learned Crown Prince to ride?
I mean, you can't say von Mackensen was some kind of stalwart Nazi, not as he shoot himself when Hitler dies or created battlefield when Allied soldiers came to arrest him. He was fond of Hitler's political abilities, fond of him as a man who can save Germany from everything that crushed into her, not as a new prophet and German messiah. He supported acting political leader and current political regime; when it was Weimar republic, he supported republic. He denounce 1944-coup, but he denounce Night of the Long Knives as well. He denounce Wermacht actions in Poland. IF somebody managed to convince him that Hitler isn't good political leader for Germany and it's Army, but it's doomer instead, von Mackensen could support coup. Not as main leader, sure - he was 87, for gods sake! - but as public figure meant to say people - "that's ok, that's not civil war, we would call Wilhelm now and everything would be as it were". I can't imagine figure better for that task - that's, after all, what did he do for Hitler!
He wasn't Hitler fanboy. He was old man who supported his country in the age of turmoil, and it happens that face of this country was Hitler.

 

[Deinhardt]

He is really just a popular figure head. Not the leader.

I made this Point in another thread. This coup is heavily different from the ones that where planned in our history, which are infact already covered by the game.

The Oster conspiracy and the other assassination attempts all went under the premise off "We kill hitler and sit ourselfs in the Reichskanzlei and take over" And this is already covered in the game as minor Chance Events, which ultimatively lead to nothing but Gäring or Himmler taking Hitlers seat.

What the new NF tree gives us is something completely different. This is an outright REVOLT against Hitler. Germany will be split in a Civil war under the premise that the Monarchist supporters are taking up arms against the Fascists. The premise is a completely different one.

And in such a case I dont find it unlikely that Mackensen, the guy that went to Wilhelms funeral in 1941, would lend his face to Wehrmacht officers that want to otherthrow Hitler and have intentions of bringing the Hohenzollern back as head of state.

The Moment you take "Oppose Hitler" Focus, you already alternate History by amping up the form of Opposition against Hitler in a very Major way.

That all said. I want to adress the Hitler supporter bit.

First Thing. The guy wrote open letters condeming the warcimes that happened behind the front and the brutality. He was suspected of illoyalty by many high ranking NSDAP members but they didnt do anything because that is how important a figurehead he was.

Second bit. Yes he condemned the 20th of July. A assassination attempt against the Head of State during the war. An assassination that was attempted in a critical and dire Situation of the war. This is a guy that bought into the "Dolchstoßlegende." Ofcourse he would condem the 20th of July. He himself thinks that such a Thing was what lost his Generation the first war in the first place.

He is more then fine for the Scenario Paradox is Creating with teh "Oppose Hitler" Focus.

 

[aono]

And in such a case I dont find it unlikely that Mackensen, the guy that went to Wilhelms funeral in 1941, would lend his face to Wehrmacht officers that want to otherthrow Hitler and have intentions of bringing the Hohenzollern back as head of state.

Actually not forget that it's guy who condemn killing his war comrades just two years before.

 

[Lumpy]

Actually not forget that it's guy who condemn killing his war comrades just two years before.

Yeah, but that didn't make him reconsider his support for Hitler.

 

[aono]

Yeah, but that didn't make him reconsider his support for Hitler.

His support for acting head of the state, not Hitler personally. What could he do? Say: "you are son of the devil, I'll kill you"? He had some obligations. Not before Hitler, before Germany. Being a man who would create new civil war isn't fit into said obligations.
But if said conflict already started (again, von Mackensen was 87 years old, not as he is primary conspirator, that's sure), and Germany isn't in war with outer enemy, are you adamant sure he would support Hitler, not his old army comrades, who would be brutally killed if they lose and return Kaiser if they win?

 

[hkrommel]

I don't get why people are disagreeing with my post, everything I've said is an easily verifiable fact or conjecture, not much to disagree with

 

[aono]

I don't get why people are disagreeing with my post, everything I've said is an easily verifiable fact or conjecture, not much to disagree with

Because Paradox dev who made that tree already said he never played Vanilla+.

UPD: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?goto/post&id=23411491#post-23411491

 

[Lumpy]

His support for acting head of the state, not Hitler personally. What could he do? Say: "you are son of the devil, I'll kill you"? He had some obligations. Not before Hitler, before Germany. Being a man who would create new civil war isn't fit into said obligations.
But if said conflict already started (again, von Mackensen was 87 years old, not as he is primary conspirator, that's sure), and Germany isn't in war with outer enemy, are you adamant sure he would support Hitler, not his old army comrades, who would be brutally killed if they lose and return Kaiser if they win?

Well, there were multiple Wehrmacht officers that were not cowardly playing the "obligations" card and actually tried to oust Hitler for the good of the country. But since they didn't wear fancy hats, pop culture will not remember them. Well played, Mackensen! Who needs courage and determination when a silly felt hat will do the job just fine?

I don't know, after everything that has been said, it might be somewhat plausible that Mackensen could have been a figurehead for a coup, with a whole lot of goodwill. But still, he wasn't particularly critical about Hitler, he expressed his admiration for him multiple times. There were lots of more appropriate candidates for such a role. That's all I'm saying.

On a side note, its just a game, of course, but imagine how the actual anti-Hitler conspirators would feel if they knew they were trumped by von Mackensen, a well known Hitler sympatizer, in the pop culture of the 21st century. A somewhat depressing thought, lol.