Void dwellers need orbital rings equivalent

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District-induced empire size is the most significant source of sprawl in the later game, as it's the only one you can actively manage for an empire of a given number of planets and pops.
Thaaaat is just false. Even given that you're saying "for a given number of pops" - that is, holding constant the by-far largest sprawl contributor, when there's not much good reason to do so - districts are just not a very meaningfully controllable factor here. Pop sprawl can be countered by governor levels (assign the highest-level ones over the sectors with the most pops), planetary ascensions, civics, two different traditions, ethics if you must, and a trait if you really must. That is a lot of levers, most of which you can "actively manage" to a VASTLY greater extent than you can "actively manage" district counts.

Besides, if you want efficient districts, you don't want habitats anyhow; ecus are better, and rings are much better. The marginal improvement in district counts from using habitats is going to be swallowed up in the sprawl from trying to create them anyhow; even with the tradition and an entire ascension perk spent reducing sprawl-from-planets, a pair of max-size habitats will give you 29 sprawl (or 26.6 counting tech) before pops or system factors in, for 48 district housing and jobs. A size 23 planet (plus Expansion finisher) will give you exactly many jobs, actually less sprawl (28 or 25.7 with tech), but cost 100% less alloys in upkeep, 50% less in colony ships, and an extraordinary amount less in alloy and influence costs to build. The only advantages the habitats will actually give is researcher districts if you have the deposits, building slots if none of the planet districts are cities, and doubled base pop growth (but heavily penalized logistic pop growth whereas the planet will enjoy a long period of +50%). Or, if you take a much smaller planet - size 9, nearly as small as they come - and turn it into an ecu, you'll get 60 district jobs (25% more), for a mere 14 (or 13.1 sprawl - less than half as much as the habitats - for a comparable amount of resources (paid in minerals rather than alloys), less influence, and more building slots (unless you took voidborn, which admittedly you would if doing habitats)! Admittedly higher upkeep on the ecu, but still, WAY more efficient.

If you don't take Imperial Prerogative, the math is even more against you; habitats become outright sprawl monsters compared to planets. Same if you don't fully upgrade your habitats. Seriously, the best case for habitats - which requires taking one bad tradition tree, one bad ascension perk, and one marginal ascension perk - makes them sort-of-kind-of competitive with planets if you don't take one of the best ascension perks in the game.

... and that's before you factor in any of planetary designations (better with normal planets, and MUCH better with ecus), planetary ascensions (vastly more efficient to do it to one large planet than two tiny habitats), the enormous output bonus of ecus (or even the much smaller one for gaia/hive/machine worlds), or that thing the whoooole thread is ostensibly about: planetary rings.

Seriously, habitats suck right now.
 
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Thaaaat is just false. Even given that you're saying "for a given number of pops" -

Oh, hey, look at that. Someone dropped a key word that was literally in what they quoted, and yet made a counter-argument that then went on to argue the merits of planets with better district efficiency, which was the point of argument of district efficiency by improving the average jobs per district.

Imagine that.
 
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Oh, hey, look at that. Someone dropped a key word that was literally in what they quoted, and yet made a counter-argument that then went on to argue the merits of planets with better district efficiency, which was the point of argument of district efficiency by improving the average jobs per district.

Imagine that.
Accepting your premise ("district-induced empire size is significant") in order to refute your conclusion ("therefore habitats are empire size efficient relative to other sources of jobs") is a logical debate tactic.

Sarcastically implying someone's being hypocritical for engaging with your argument is not.
 
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Accepting your premise ("district-induced empire size is significant") in order to refute your conclusion ("therefore habitats are empire size efficient relative to other sources of jobs") is a logical debate tactic.

Sarcastically implying someone's being hypocritical for engaging with your argument is not.

Since I neither imply they're a hypocrite, nor was that my premise, I'll say nay. My charge is that they missed a point they had to mis-state to remake.

Literally removing a key qualifier was a bad start- it wasn't 'for a given number of pops'- it was 'a given number of planets and pops' which impacts certain secondary arguments, but the conclusion certainly wasn't 'therefore habitat empires are size efficient relative to other sources of jobs' either. If you took that from this last statement of the post he was responding to, ie. the literal conclusion of a post that specifically focused on a specific line of argument alone-
Note this is only about this specific line of argument. I do maintain that habitats are underpowered right now. But that's not due to irrelevance of sprawl density, and more of the ring-effects for industrial districts. Miner districts as a whole are a red-herring, as you can get so many from megastructures/tributes/trade, but the alloy/CG economy, which is an early game strength, just doesn't scale enough.

-I'm not sure what to say, except no. This conclusion is not that habitats are empire size-efficient relative to other sources. Not only because this is not arguing that habitats are strong- indicated by explicitly calling habitats underpowered and not scaling well due to the impact of rings- but because it rests on an explicit opening qualifier of for a given number of planets. If the alternative to a habitat is instead a planet, it is no longer a comparison for the same number of planets, any more than it'd be the same comparison if you added more pops to one model but not the other.

This was not an argument that habitats are preferable to planets, or instead of planets, or even about habitats in particular. It was that district sprawl does matter, in response to a broader argument I wasn't contesting (habitats are weak) to focus on one specific part.

Which person who quoted and then mis-stated the opening qualified argument to remove a qualifier then went on to argue with an even more district-efficiency example argument.

Since my core argument is 'district sprawl matters', not 'habitats are good,' this is expanding the argument thaaaat was just false in the opening 'rebuttal.'
 
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Accepting your premise ("district-induced empire size is significant") in order to refute your conclusion ("therefore habitats are empire size efficient relative to other sources of jobs") is a logical debate tactic.
Habitats can be efficient, in the sense of "I need an extra Mining world, so I will built a Mining Habitat over this mineral desposit for the extra 12, 18, then 24 Miner jobs."

It is not efficient when you just spam them everywhere.
 
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Don’t think that that was their argument at all

Can you summarize the argument as you see it?

I'm not really involved in the disagreement here but I have a lot of interest in pop-size efficiency and it did look like that was the argument.

What am I missing?
 
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