"Viva San Marco!" - Why Venice deserves more

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Van Kasten

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Hi everyone, it is my second thread delving into Italian gameplay flavor, with the hope that these changes will convince more players to have fun and “feel the flavor” while playing in the Italian peninsula.

In this thread, I’m gonna talk about the Most Serene Republic of Venice: how it’s modeled in game and what are my suggested changes

The Most Serene Republic of Venice

1240px-Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Venice.svg.png


-A brief (but not so brief) introduction

I will not bother you with the birth and the expansion of the Republic of Venice in its first centuries, but at the starting date of 1444 Venice controlled quite a bit of land and was a trade colossus before the Ottomans conquered Constantinople first and the Portuguese circumnavigated Africa later. The Venetian government was composed only by patricians, individuals who were part of wealthy families of merchants. These man had sea and trade experience thanks to a state-wide tradition of education (in which I’m not delving into) and were loyal to the Republic. Venice was also the capital of an highly secular state (for the time), in which tolerance was common practice and the Pope had little power (the clergymen were loyal to the Republic). There was an instance when Venice was interdicted because the judges refused to let two priests be judged by a papal court. And don’t let me start talking about the Arsenale. The main point is that: Venice deserves more than the standard “merchant republic” government type.


-The problem with the factions

In the standard “merchant republic” template, there are 3 faction representing the Aristocrats, the Merchants and the Guilds. But in Venice the Aristocrats and the Merchants are the same people! This can’t be right, it has to be changed. But with what?

Now, another bit of history. The Republic of Venice had 3 administrative divisions: the “Dogado” (Venice and some cities around the venetian coastline), the “Stato da Mar” (the territories, cities and colonies in the Mediterranean) and the “Stato da Tera” (the mainland provinces in Italy).

Ladies and Gentlemen, I propose to replace the factions with these three backbones of the Venetian Republic. The mechanic is simple but unique nonetheless. With every new ruler in Lubeck comes an event in which the player chooses which bonuses to have in those 4 years. This is a basis for what I’m proposing:

With every new Doge, the player will receive an event in which he will choose in which “area” to focus his rule. Each of these 3 options will bring a flat bonus for the country, a local bonus and a scaling bonus. The local bonus will take effects in the provinces which will be the focus of the Doge’s rule, while the scaling bonus will affect all the nation but will scale bases on the focus area’s development with respect to the others. For example, the player chooses to focus on the “Stato da Mar” and the development in that area is 55% of the nation’s development (counting autonomy) than the scaling bonus will be multiplied by a factor of 0.55. Now I’ll list the three areas, how to recognize their provinces and what the bonuses will be:

1) DOGADO (to put it simple, this area is in fact only the capital itself, Venezia)

- Flat Bonus: -0.2 yearly corruption

- Local Bonus: -10% development cost

- Scaling Bonus: +10% administrative efficiency

Focusing on the Dogado means pulling attention away from all other territories to enrich the capital and to promote fair governing. A look inward, we might say. The scaling bonus is for reasons of balance: it will grow only when Venice lose land and will be max when Venice only controls one province (or all the others are at 100% autonomy).

2) STATO DA MAR (to put it simple, every coastal province not in Italy or in Italy but disconnected from the rest or provinces that border only Stato da Mar provinces)

- Flat Bonus: +10% global trade power

- Local Bonus: +10% defensiveness

- Scaling Bonus: +10% trade efficiency

Focusing on the Stato da Mar means focusing on promoting trade colonies and overseas territories. A look outward. The scaling bonus is for reasons of reward: it will grow only when Venice gain new provinces in the Stato da Mar.

3) STATO DA TERA (to put it simple, all the rest*)

- Flat Bonus: +5% morale of armies

- Local Bonus: -0.05 autonomy change

- Scaling Bonus: +15% manpower

Focusing on the Stato da Tera means undertaking an expansionist agenda in the mainland. The scaling bonus is for reasons of reward: it will grow only when Venice gain new provinces in the Stato da Tera.

*this could be restricted to all mainland provinces in Italy or having a land route to a Stato da Tera province. This could mean that the sum of the developments could not be the whole development of the nation, thus punishing a large ahistorical Venice.

It is worth noting that the moment a non-coastal province of the Stato da Mar is connected to the capital it becomes Stato da Tera. The same applies if a coastal province in Italy is connected to the capital.

-The election of the Doge

743px-Antonio_Diziani_-_The_Sala_del_Maggior_Consiglio,_Doge's_Palace_-_WGA06352.jpg


In the standard “merchant republic” template, an election takes place every 4 years. In the case of Venice, the Doge ruled for life. The election was complex and therefore not easily manipulated. My proposal is simple: every time a Doge dies, a new one with random stats will be generated. This “Dogedom” can be a Tier 1 reform identical to the Merchant Republic one but with a Doge ruling for life.


-Government Reforms

This kind of election will create a problem. The third tier of government reforms for republic lets you choose between shorter election cycles and longer ones. But in this case those reforms would be completely useless! However, if the developers could change the second row of reforms for Venice, my proposal is already stated: all the 3 option above can be modeled as separate tier 3 reforms! The name should be these:

Second Row of Reforms -> “Serenissima Signoria’s administration”

· “Uphold the Old Traditions”: enables Venetian parliament (fixed amount of seats with flavour names), -1 global unrest (kindly borrowed from @Paland0)
First of all, the doge should rule for life and start with some random stats, since the real election process was random and with so many steps that manipulation was impossible. As the Venetians were distrustful, the power of the doge was constrained (e.g. no royal marriages, per se no strong position, ...). However, the long time a doge ruled made him know many other representatives and through this he usually was able to influence the politics of Venice. To represent this there should be random events decreasing your republican tradition in favour of increasing the ruler stats of the doge (I'd say 10 republican tradition for 1 stat point). RT should still increase yearly. Additionaly, a parliament mechanic should be implemented, whereby a new legislation is passed every 4-10 years, there is a fixed number of parliament members (not tied to a province).

The actual governmental functions were in the hands of various institutions with competing powers and competence. To name some (the assignment is modern, and therefore might not be 100% accurate):
  • Maggior Consiglio (legislation)
  • Senato
  • Consiglio dei Dieci (executive)
  • Colleggio dei Savi (~cabinet)
  • Quarantia (judicial)
  • Inquisitori di Stato (judicial)
  • Serenissima Signoria
I would suggest taking the Serenissima Signoria consisting out of 10 members (doge, 6 members of the Minor Consiglio, 3 highest justices of the Quarantia) as a parliament, since having so many institutions will be no fun. The Serenissima Signoria was the highest representative government body of Venice's sovereignity (proposing bills, calling in the Maggior Consiglio, foreign policy, presiding in every other institution, substitute the doge after his death, ...). Additionaly, the number of representatives is low enough that there are not that many buttons to press. Another possibility could be taking the name of every government body instead, what also would result in a modest number of parliamentary seats. Finally, the death of a Doge increases republican tradition by 10.

· “Empower the Counsellors”: -10% advisor cost, +1 possible advisors
This reform could provide shorter National Focus cooldown and a reset of the National Focus everytime a Doge dies. This will give more versatility in Monarch Point generation. Moreover, it should provide -5% advisor cost.

· “Empower the Doge”: +5 max absolutism, -10% stability cost

Furthermore, I dare say the Tier 8 republican reforms are quite unbalanced, but I’m not here to complain. I’m here to offer a third reform, available to Dogedoms and Merchant Republics (and maybe Veche Republics) only. This reform is proposed because none of the existing ones is applicable to Venice or other merchant republics, and also for roleplaying purposes (since +10% morale will always be better):

· “Patrician Reform” (only the Patricians can vote): +1 leader pool, -50% cost of Admirals


-Mission Tree

Missioni_Venezia.png


The standard Venetian mission tree consist of the standard missions plus four unique ones divided in two branches. In the first branch you have to first go against Genoa and then against her colonies in the Black Sea. Wait what? To really disrupt Genoese Trade you would have to go for their colonies first and then for the heart of the republic. I know that cheesy players will always conquer Genoa to disrupt its trade but if we want at least some claim of historical accuracy we have to swap them. Don’t worry, I thought of a Mission Tree myself. I tried to include more play styles and tried to avoid things such as “Build three churches” or “Have three allies”. This is my proposal.

Venetian Mission Tree.PNG


There are multiple branches for conquest in Italy and trade expansion. Of course, more mission could be added, but it felt like they were not as linkable as the one I’ve put. I also tried to avoid mission chains like “Conquer area X” then “Conquer area Y” then “Conquer area Z” (and so on) because it felt extremely boring. Please, be free to judge these missions, but remember what I wrote here.


-Some flavor events

Venice has many flavor events, especially in the first years of the game. I just want to add a few, form the end of the XV century to the half of the XVIII century.

- Ottaviano Petrucci event for Venice

This event will fire only once, between 1490 and 1510

“Ottaviano Petrucci”

“Ottaviano Petrucci was an italian noble who came to Venice in 1490 to learn the art of printing. He approached the Doge in 1498 asking the exclusive right to print music for the next 20 years, which was granted. He was the first in Italy to ever print a book of sheet music form movable type. His first publication was the “Harmoniche Msuces Odhecaton”, a collection of 96 chansons, printed in 1501. In the next years he perfected his technique and the quality of his works. In 1509 however, was forced to migrate to Fossombrone, in the Papal States, because of the War of the League of Cambrai. The he asked the permission to print to the Pope, but after a few years the permission was retracted because of his disinterst towards organ compositions.”

· Option A: “We will grant you the permission!”

Gain 5 prestige

Gain 10 administrative points


- Wool Boom event for Venice

This event will fire only once, in the Age of Reformation, Venice owns Brescia (Bergamo), year is at least 1540, MTTH 25 years

x 0.75 if Milan province has devastation

x 0.75 if Firenze province has devastation

x 0.75 if Brescia (Bergamo) province has prosperity

“Wool Cloth Boom”

“Following the Italian Wars, major centers of wool cloth trade and production such as Milan and Florence were on the decline. This allowed minor centers to prosper, and in particular our city of Bergamo is taking the lead of this production boom. Envoys from the ‘Arte della Lana’ claim that in the next 50 years our wool production could even quadruplicate! Every year more of their merchant and artisans asks for citizenship in Venice, hoping to take advantage of this situation and to export their products to the Levant. How should we act in this situation?”

· Option A: “They can stay and make us rich”

Gain 0.2 yearly income


· Option B: “Task them to make Bergamo prosper even more”

Brescia (Bergamo) gets province modifier “Wool Cloth Boom” (+1 goods produced, +5 trade power) until it has prosperity


If: ruler has personality trait “Industrious”

· Option C: “They can stay and make us even richer”

Gain 0.3 yearly income



- Ludovico Dolce event for Venice

This event will fire only once, after Printing Press has spawned but before 1570

“Ludovico Dolce”

“Ludovico Dolce was a broadly-based Venetian humanist and prolific author, translator and editor, and was one of the most active intellectuals in 16th-century Venice. Over the course of thirty-six years Dolce was responsible for 96 editions of his own original work, 202 editions of other writers, and at least 54 translations. He worked to make information available to those who could not study Greek and Latin. Following a productive life as a scholar and author, Dolce died in January, 1568.”

· Option A: “A prolific work indeed!”

Gain 10 administrative points

Gain 25 support of Printing Press Institution in Venice


- Andrea Palladio event for Venice

This event will fire only once, between 1560 and 1580, MTTH 10 years

“The architecture of Andrea Palladio”

“Andrea Palladio was a Venetian architect. Influenced by the classic architecture, by Vitruvius in particular, he is one of the most influential people in his field. He worked only in the Republic of Venice, but his style spread all across the world. He did not use expansive materials, but nonetheless his buildings and villas are famous for their beauty, harmony, and the ability to express the social status of their owners. In ‘The four books of architecture’ he wrote his rules and proportions. His style influenced later generations, and was appreciated in France, Great Britain and also to the United States of America.”

· Option A: “His style is truly magnificent!”

Gain 10 prestige

Gain country modifier “Palladianism” (-10% Build Cost, -10% Build Time) for 20 years


- Antonio Vivaldi event for the Venice

This event will fire only once, between 1705 and 1740, MTTH 10 years

“The marvels of a music genius”

“Antonio Vivaldi was one of the most renowned baroque composers. Called “the red priest”, he has been the most influential and original Italian musician of the time. His most famous work, The Four Seasons, is seen as one of the most iconic piece of the period. Even composers such as Johann Sebastian Bach were inspired by him. However, he didn’t achieve him fame in Italy until long after his death.”

· Option A: “Truly magnificent music”

Gain 10 prestige


- Cesare Beccaria event for Venice

This event will fire only once, Venice has embraced Enlightment, MTTH 10 years

“Dei delitti e delle pene”

“One of our thinkers recently published a short book about crimes and punishment, and how the latter is handled in our society. His work, already translated to French, will surely cause quite a shock in the public opinion of their governments. He states that the certainty of the punishment is more important that its intensity, and that every man on trial is innocent until proven in court. He also criticizes the efficacy of torture and capital punishment, which he considers inhuman treatments. What shall we do with this book?”

· Option A: “We should implement his just ideas”

Gain 5 prestige

Lose 10 absolutism

Gain national modifier “Embraced Beccaria’s thinking” (-5 max absolutism, -1 national unrest) until the end of the campaign


· Option B: “Total absurdities! Ban the book!”

Lose 5 prestige

Gain 5 absolutism

Lose 10 military points

Gain +1 national unrest for 10 years

That is all, my friends. Please, share your thoughts and doubts with me, and see you on my next thread ;)
Special thanks to @Paland0 for his valuable opinions and suggestions.

EDIT: added an alternative effect for the "Empower the Ducal Counsellors" government reform.
 
Last edited:

Funchi

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Love it!
I like a lot the idea of the new factions, which would make Venice more enjoyable to play and for sure much more unique than a random merchant republic!

just a question, what are the rewards for the missions? do u get permant claim on other areas?
and the mission "Italian Trade monopoly" does this mission means you have to own "Ferrara, Milano, Venezia, Genova, Firenze, Roma and Napoli"

while the mission "Mediterranea Monopoly" means you have to own which trade centers? only those on the coast or also som inland like Florence? and Damascus, or Cairo?
 

Van Kasten

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Love it!
I like a lot the idea of the new factions, which would make Venice more enjoyable to play and for sure much more unique than a random merchant republic!

Thanks a lot!
I really felt that the standard factions were not the best for Venice, and I wanted to give it a special system to use.

just a question, what are the rewards for the missions? do u get permant claim on other areas?
and the mission "Italian Trade monopoly" does this mission means you have to own "Ferrara, Milano, Venezia, Genova, Firenze, Roma and Napoli"

I’m not a fan of permanent claims handed out like candies in the new mission system, so I say that the rewards would be proper bonuses for a limited time. For example trade efficiency bonuses, mercantilism, manpower recovery, prestige, etc.
In my original idea, yes, the mission was about conquering Milano, Genova, Firenze, Napoli. Ferrara is an esthuary, not a center of trade. However, with the new trade center system, you’ll have to conquer the new ones as well.

while the mission "Mediterranea Monopoly" means you have to own which trade centers? only those on the coast or also som inland like Florence? and Damascus, or Cairo?

Only the centers of trade on the Mediterranean Coast ;)
 

Sanguine Caesar

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Great suggestions as always @Van Kasten !

I have a suggestion for another flavour event here if you wish to include it:

As you know, by 1444 time Venice had already annexed the Patriarchate of Aquilea into its territory, however in 1365 the County of Gorizia (which had been one of their fiefdoms) was formally separated from the Patriarch's domain. In 1500, the last Count of Gorizia died without an heir, causing a minor succession conflict between Austria and Venice (who used the previous relationship between Gorizia and Aquilea as justification for their claim to the Counts' lands), which the Habsburgs ended up winning. Now depending on whether or not Gorizia gets a tag in-game, an event to represent it can be represented in either of the following ways:
Option 1: Gorizia tag is added to the game
Requirements:
  • Gorizia, Venice, and Austria are Independent
  • Ruler of Gorizia dies without an heir
  • Is the Age of Discovery or the Age of Reformation
Effects:
  • Austria inherits Gorizia
  • Venice gains 25-year claims on Görz and Lienz

Option 2: Gorizia tag is not added to the game
Requirements:
  • Year is 1500
Effects:
  • Venice gains 25-year claims on Görz and Lienz

Otherwise, I especially like your reworking of the Venetian government and factions: it adds some necessary flavour and depth to what was in every sense of the word a regional - and in some cases global - titan of trade! Bravo! :)
 

Van Kasten

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Great suggestions as always @Van Kasten !

Thank you very much! :D

I have a suggestion for another flavour event here if you wish to include it:

As you know, by 1444 time Venice had already annexed the Patriarchate of Aquilea into its territory, however in 1365 the County of Gorizia (which had been one of their fiefdoms) was formally separated from the Patriarch's domain. In 1500, the last Count of Gorizia died without an heir, causing a minor succession conflict between Austria and Venice (who used the previous relationship between Gorizia and Aquilea as justification for their claim to the Counts' lands), which the Habsburgs ended up winning. Now depending on whether or not Gorizia gets a tag in-game, an event to represent it can be represented in either of the following ways:
Option 1: Gorizia tag is added to the game
Requirements:
  • Gorizia, Venice, and Austria are Independent
  • Ruler of Gorizia dies without an heir
  • Is the Age of Discovery or the Age of Reformation
Effects:
  • Austria inherits Gorizia
  • Venice gains 25-year claims on Görz and Lienz

Option 2: Gorizia tag is not added to the game
Requirements:
  • Year is 1500
Effects:
  • Venice gains 25-year claims on Görz and Lienz

Interesting event! In my opinion the Gorizia-tag should be present in the game, and I hope to see it in the future.

Otherwise, I especially like your reworking of the Venetian government and factions: it adds some necessary flavour and depth to what was in every sense of the word a regional - and in some cases global - titan of trade! Bravo! :)

Thanks, I always felt that the standard factions were more like constraints to Venice that flavor. I hope to have showed the devs an interesting and flavorful alternative and some ideas about how to beautify Venice in a future update.
 

Funchi

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I was reading again on the new factions that you would like to introduce, and I came up with some doubts, first of all when you say that they should replace the current republican factions that are Aristocrats, Traders and Guilds, I think the bonuses are not well balanced between the old one and the new, let me list them:

Aristocrats: (Military faction)
  • -10% trade power abroad;
  • +5% morale of armies;
  • +25% national sailors modifier.
The Traders: (Diplomatic faction)
  • -5% national tax modifier;
  • +10% global trade power modifier;
  • -10% naval maintenance modifier.
The Guilds: (Administrative faction)
  • -10% build cost;
  • -10% national manpower modifier;
  • +10% goods produced modifier.
Your modification would be:

Dogato: (what type of faction? Administrative maybe?)
  • Flat Bonus: -0.2 yearly corruption
  • Local Bonus: -10% development cost
  • Scaling Bonus: +10% administrative efficiency
Stato da Mar: (what type of faction? Diplomatic maybe?)
  • Flat Bonus: +10% global trade power
  • Local Bonus: +10% defensiveness
  • Scaling Bonus: +10% trade efficiency
Stato da Tera: (what type of faction? Military maybe?)
  • Flat Bonus: +5% morale of armies
  • Local Bonus: -0.05 autonomy change
  • Scaling Bonus: +15% manpower

So all the old bonuses are flat bonuses to my knowledge, while yours are divided and according to what you said the Flat Bonus is country wide, while the local bonus are active on the regions that fall within the “jurisdiction” of the faction, and the scaling bonus is calculated in accordance to percentage between the total development and the region development taking in account the autonomy (which I didn’t quite well understood how it works).

I think the flat bonus of the Dogato, is too unbalanced, I mean if I focus on the capital, I doubt I will expand myself like a blob and it’s rare I get high level of corruption if I don’t get overextension, even religious unity will be at 100% if I remain small so in this case it’s useless. But on the contrary if I blob and get let’s say 40% overextension, I just need to choose a Doge that focuses on the Dogato, and puff… my corruption is balanced and I can save quite some ducats!

Another question I have is how you can apply the local bonuses and under what jurisdiction each region falls, let me explain, you said that the “Dogato” is Venice, the capital, the “Stato da Mar” are all the coastal regions not in Italy, or Italian regions disconnected from the rest, let’s say Urbino while you didn’t conquered Ferrara and Romagna, and the “Stato da Tera” all the rest.

So taking in account what you said, at the starting date we would have the following situation:

Dogato:
  • Venice.
Stato da Mar:
  • Istria;
  • Dalmazia;
  • Durazzo;
  • Negroponte;
  • Crete.
Stato da Tera:
  • Treviso;
  • Friuli;
  • Verona;
  • Brescia.
Now my question is, what happens if I conquer Gorz and Istria gets connected to the Stato da Tera? Does it change faction and becomes part of the Stato de Tera getting a different local bonus? Also if I wage war against Bosnia and I conquer Hum, in which faction and which local bonus does it get? Should it go in Stato da Mar cause it’s not mainland Italy, but at the same time it’s not a coastal region so it should be Stato da Tera, I think this should be better explained.

Also another question is about the Dogato, at the start it’s Venice…but what happens if you lose your capital, and let’s say Verona becomes the new capital of the Republic? Will now Verona be the new Dogato, and get the new bonus while before it was part of the Stato da Tera?

I’m sorry if I’m being a bit nasty with this comments, but I really like the idea, and I hope I can help you improve it so that in can be accepted inside the game.
 

Van Kasten

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So all the old bonuses are flat bonuses to my knowledge, while yours are divided and according to what you said the Flat Bonus is country wide, while the local bonus are active on the regions that fall within the “jurisdiction” of the faction, and the scaling bonus is calculated in accordance to percentage between the total development and the region development taking in account the autonomy (which I didn’t quite well understood how it works).

I think the flat bonus of the Dogato, is too unbalanced, I mean if I focus on the capital, I doubt I will expand myself like a blob and it’s rare I get high level of corruption if I don’t get overextension, even religious unity will be at 100% if I remain small so in this case it’s useless. But on the contrary if I blob and get let’s say 40% overextension, I just need to choose a Doge that focuses on the Dogato, and puff… my corruption is balanced and I can save quite some ducats!

I admit that these bonuses were decided before the announcement of corruption from extra territories. Nonetheless, focusing on the capital means not focusing on expanding trade and defending the trade colonies or focusing on the army and the faster integration of the conquered provinces. The more you conquer the less the administrative efficiency you get for selecting the Dogado. So you have a development cost discount for one province and the corruption reduction. If you play wide, the development discount will never be used and so you have only one effective bonus. If you count the fact that religious conversion is no longer possible in territories, you'll be getting a lot of corruption as Venice, which you can get rid of by focusing on the capital and neglecting the rest. Remember that trade always yelds more money and a stronger army is nothing to sniff at. That said, the developers can test these parameters more than me, so nothing here is written in stone ;)

So taking in account what you said, at the starting date we would have the following situation:

Dogato:
  • Venice.
Stato da Mar:
  • Istria;
  • Dalmazia;
  • Durazzo;
  • Negroponte;
  • Crete.
Stato da Tera:
  • Treviso;
  • Friuli;
  • Verona;
  • Brescia.

Yes, at the start the provinces will be divided as you say. To count the scaling effects at the start, you must count the development of each province and scale that based on the autonomy. For example, Brescia has 20 development and 12% autonomy. So it will count as (1 - 0.12)*20 = 17,6. Following this logic (the same for Institution embracement), you'll find this figures at the start:

DOGADO = 27 (Venezia)
STATO DA TERA = 17.6 (Brescia) + 21 (Verona) + 18 (Treviso) + 13.72 (Friuli) = 70.32
STATO DA MAR = 7.6 (Istria) + 12.09 (Dalmazia) + 4.3 (Durazzo) + 7.6 (Negroponte) + 12.09 (Crete) = 43.68

The total development is 141, distributed between the three jurisdictions this way:

DOGADO = 19%
STATO DA TERA = 50%
STATO DA MAR = 31%

Mind, these are rounded values. And there can be many more modifier to be added. For example, every Center of Trade that Venice owns these can be a +5 (per level?) on the score of the Stato da Mar. That would be because the provinces in Italy are well developed, so the score of the Stato da Tera goes up significantly faster than the Stato da Mar, and the latter requires having strategic provinces with Centers of Trade (even if they are not very developed). There can also be multiplier to the scores (or just additive values) from picking certain idea groups: Trade Ideas should increase Stato da Mar score, while Offensive Ideas should increase Stato da Tera score, and so on.

Now my question is, what happens if I conquer Gorz and Istria gets connected to the Stato da Tera? Does it change faction and becomes part of the Stato de Tera getting a different local bonus? Also if I wage war against Bosnia and I conquer Hum, in which faction and which local bonus does it get? Should it go in Stato da Mar cause it’s not mainland Italy, but at the same time it’s not a coastal region so it should be Stato da Tera, I think this should be better explained.

Also another question is about the Dogato, at the start it’s Venice…but what happens if you lose your capital, and let’s say Verona becomes the new capital of the Republic? Will now Verona be the new Dogato, and get the new bonus while before it was part of the Stato da Tera?

Thanks for the question. Before discussing each question, I have to say that I'll edit the description of the Stato da Mar to include provinces that borders only Stato da Mar provinces.

1) Both Gorizia and Istria are in the state of Carniola, in South Germany. Istria begins in the Stato da Mar. In case Gorizia is conquered, then Gorizia becomes a Stato da Tera province (since it's connected to the capital through Friuli and Treviso), but Istria is not changed since it's coastal and not in Italy. I have to admit that this example is though, because when Gorizia tried to have protection from Venice it was put under the Stato da Tera jurisdiction. In EU4 Gorizia and Istria are not only in the same region but also in the same state! I must say that this Gorizia issue may prove difficult to resolve, unless it is hardcoded to be Stato da Tera if it bordrs a Stato da Tera province although it is coastal. I don't mind if it becomes Stato da Mar following my rules, but it would be ahistorical.

2) Using the initial setup of Venice, Hum will become Stato da Mar since it borders only Stato da Mar provinces (Dalmazia). But, if a land connection to the capital is made, then (since it's not coastal) it will change jurisdiction to Stato da Tera. If Hum is then cuf off and borders ONLY Stato da Mar provinces, it will revert back to Stato da Mar.

3) No, the Dogado is only the province of Venice. If Verona becomes the new capital, the Venetian Republic will become even more a land power, and so the loss of the Dogado will reflect this new position. Sam if the capital changes to a Stato da Mar province, although it is very unlickely.

I hope to have provided you with the answers you were looking for ;)
 

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@Van Kasten , now that patch 1.27 will be released in the coming days, what are your thoughts on the update to Venetian and other republican government reforms?
 

Vizconde-I

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@Van Kasten , now that patch 1.27 will be released in the coming days, what are your thoughts on the update to Venetian and other republican government reforms?
-> we have to test the new unique Venice goverment. Many people and myself got a lot of doubts that it all be stronger compared to the current patch where u can easily get 6 6 6 leaders.
I played myself a lot Venice in Sp and Mp and also did many roleplays and the following things are actual bad and should be improved.(some counts for merchant republics too)
1. Venice starting navy. In 1444 Venice starts with a 4 galleys, 12 transportships and 7 trade ships. This is imo way to less compared to their historical navy power. On the other hand Ottomans starst also with 23 ships but got 8 galleys. Imo this naval balance power is not correct and Venice should start with more ships.
2. Furthermore I would like to give Venice some unique ships like their famous Galleasses. It could be like a unique mix between galley and heavies. Like a galley but with more hitpoints to tank and more firepower. This would represent their famous unique ship knowledge. Their unique famous Galleasses were used at the battle of Lepanto very successfully. A system would be nice to recruit them but limit their number quite heavily.
3. Trade leagues. The trade leagues got good things but also bad things. I think the system of the trade leagues is so far ok but the mechanic of trade cities is way to weak. The idea of them is super nice. Lets take an example. We are Venice and made some expansion in Italy and also in the Balcans and also Greece. But we got now our 20 provinces Limited. So it could be a nice idea to make a trade city in Naxos and Rhodos for income and defensive Bonus and compansate our land limit. Lets say we have a trade League with around 8-10 members. Thats pretty decent. But if a strong enemies attacks the trade league/citys they got often no chance vs good players. We all know ai behavoirs. Opms trade members lose a few battles and after some time the attacker can white peace them out. I would suggest that if trade members or only trade cities (maybe all members would be too strong) you can call in your allies as well. Also I would suggest that the Trade League Leader can upgrade trade Centers and build buildings of their members to improve the trade/income.
4. Venice ideas. Lets take a Small look at the venetian ideas:
I: Traditions:
+10%
Global trade power
+20% National sailors modifier
-> imo pretty fine and good
II: Venetian Arsenal
+25%
Naval force limit modifier
−20% Galley cost
-> Naval force limit is decent together with event =35% more ships
->Galley cost is medium. I would prefer to have cost reducation to all ships since Venice builds also many trade ships.
III: Printing Industry
+1
Diplomat
->The Diplomat is very usefull (also for keeping your trade League). But Venice had also a huge insane good role in diplomacy. They had good representers and forged many good alliances/peaces etc. Imo Venice needs +1 Dip Slot and also +1 Reputation.
IV: Stato da Màr
+10%
Trade Efficiency
I think this is okay.
V:State Inquisition
+30%
Foreign spy detection
-> This is on the one side in MP with counterspionage and rules where u can conquer land only with claims pretty funny and good but since so many nations get permanent claims (like the Ottomans on Venice) its almost useless.
VI:Naval Conscription
−20%
Naval maintenance modifier
−5% Sailor maintenance
-> fine
VII: Defend the Law
−10%
Stability cost modifier
−10% Cost to justify trade conflict
-> imo one of the worst ideas in eu4. As Republic we can easily keep high stab and it is expansive to spend anyways. The 10% does not matter. Same goes for the trade conflict costs. If we can justify a trade conflict the cost reduction is useless.
VIII: Provveditori ai beni Inculti
−10%
Land attrition
−10% Naval attrition
-> very very weak imo
VIV: Ambition:
+25%
Galley combat ability
awesome! very awesome! but...it comes way to late! AI Venice and many players die before they unluck it. This idea should be unlocked a lot quicker. With it Venice can handle better navy enemys. For example we see often Venice Ai navy losing to austrian navy and then he loses his Capital.

Resuming Venice ideas I suggest that they get buffs for diplomacy and naval system. I also dont understand why Venice does not get navy ideas like naval tradition or navy morale. In the current game their insane navy strenght and navy dominance is not represented.

5. More events for permanent modificiers to Venezia like better ports. So far Venice starts with a building to represent their unique harbour. But I think it would be better if Venice gets an event to build up/improve their port. I read a few times that Venice was able to construct 1 ship a day. I will read later about it and edit it in.
6. Buffs to their artillery. Venice was leading in artillery at their time. They had insane cannon fabrics. Imo should be represented.
7. Faction system. The faction system was maybe fine when they started it years ago. But in the current game the factions are soooooo weak compared to estates. For example the Burghers are so strong. They improve trade power of the land, u can demand a lot of cash, advisors and furthermore u can keep EASILY +20% trade efficiency. Its very sad that the Burgher estate can create a lot of more cash then the faction the traders.
I would love it there would be some updates and updates to the faction system or even a mix with the estates.
 

B92FS

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Venice needs help also in land.
Stradioti event -> 10% cavalry CA instead of base manpower

Can be make an event to simulate the expansion of Arsenale:
- Invest in navy (spend 100 ducats, -1 years worth of income) -> -15% Ship cost and +10% Galleys CA
- Invest in land (spend 100 ducats, -1 years worth of income)-> +10% artillery CA (or +10% land fire damage)
- It is too much expensive (do nothing)

In my opinion Venetian ideas there should have a bonus regarding mercs: -15% mercs maintenance or +2,5% mercs discipline
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Venice needs help also in land.
Stradioti event -> 10% cavalry CA instead of base manpower

Can be make an event to simulate the expansion of Arsenale:
- Invest in navy (spend 100 ducats, -1 years worth of income) -> -15% Ship cost and +10% Galleys CA
- Invest in land (spend 100 ducats, -1 years worth of income)-> +10% artillery CA (or +10% land fire damage)
- It is too much expensive (do nothing)

In my opinion Venetian ideas there should have a bonus regarding mercs: -15% mercs maintenance or +2,5% mercs discipline
The Arsenal needs its own freaking mechanics, the thing was incredible, It wasn't beaten in scale of production by another military facility until the early 20th century.

Its probably also worth noting that Venetian use of Mercenaries really wasn't much higher than any other typical nations of the era past about 1430. They relied far more heavily on land bonds and conscription in places like Dalmatia.
 

Van Kasten

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@Van Kasten , now that patch 1.27 will be released in the coming days, what are your thoughts on the update to Venetian and other republican government reforms?

Well, we have yet to see. Maybe the combo Venetian Government-Nepotism is strong, maybe not. For the other Republics nothing will change, exept for RP purposes. Two governments I would like to see are the Signoria (for Florence and for replacing the "Dictatorship" for Italian Republics) and the Comune (similar to the Free city: it will be used only with OPM republic in Italy). The other governments are fine per se.

2. Furthermore I would like to give Venice some unique ships like their famous Galleasses. It could be like a unique mix between galley and heavies. Like a galley but with more hitpoints to tank and more firepower. This would represent their famous unique ship knowledge. Their unique famous Galleasses were used at the battle of Lepanto very successfully. A system would be nice to recruit them but limit their number quite heavily.

Sadly, the Galleass is the next tier galley-type ship after the galley. Unique ships would be inetersting as a concept, like elite units on land.

3. Trade leagues. The trade leagues got good things but also bad things. I think the system of the trade leagues is so far ok but the mechanic of trade cities is way to weak. The idea of them is super nice. Lets take an example. We are Venice and made some expansion in Italy and also in the Balcans and also Greece. But we got now our 20 provinces Limited. So it could be a nice idea to make a trade city in Naxos and Rhodos for income and defensive Bonus and compansate our land limit. Lets say we have a trade League with around 8-10 members. Thats pretty decent. But if a strong enemies attacks the trade league/citys they got often no chance vs good players. We all know ai behavoirs. Opms trade members lose a few battles and after some time the attacker can white peace them out. I would suggest that if trade members or only trade cities (maybe all members would be too strong) you can call in your allies as well. Also I would suggest that the Trade League Leader can upgrade trade Centers and build buildings of their members to improve the trade/income.

AI behavior can be improved. I fyou are interested, @Dakkadakka127 made a thread advocating for Improvements of Trade Leagues.

I read a few times that Venice was able to construct 1 ship a day.

It's more complex than that. Basically, in the Arsenale the ships were constructed with standardized materials and equipment, and were stored half-constructed. So, in the eventuality of a war, Venice could finish the half-biult ship very fast, like in a proper modern factory.

6. Buffs to their artillery. Venice was leading in artillery at their time. They had insane cannon fabrics. Imo should be represented.

The best artilleries were used on ships and on fort defense. So I can comprehend why in-game this fact has been neglected.

Venice needs help also in land.
Stradioti event -> 10% cavalry CA instead of base manpower

It could be tied to a Stradioti Estate, now that they are in the base game. Avaibale only for Venice and able to hold only Albanian provinces.

In my opinion Venetian ideas there should have a bonus regarding mercs: -15% mercs maintenance or +2,5% mercs discipline

Mercenaries were used in all of the Italian States. Moreover, most of the army in times of war came from the levies in the Terra Firma territories of the Republic, although the mercenaries were more professional. The mercenary modifiers linked to Army Professionalism should suffice, since they should represent the transition from a Feudal Army to a National (and professional) one.

The Arsenal needs its own freaking mechanics, the thing was incredible, It wasn't beaten in scale of production by another military facility until the early 20th century.

Exactly. I have a draft taken from my proposal in an old thread. I will post it after giving it some touches.
 

B92FS

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Mercenaries were used in all of the Italian States. Moreover, most of the army in times of war came from the levies in the Terra Firma territories of the Republic, although the mercenaries were more professional. The mercenary modifiers linked to Army Professionalism should suffice, since they should represent the transition from a Feudal Army to a National (and professional) one.
Yes, it's true, and in fact most of the Italian minors have merc maintenance discount (-15%)
 

Van Kasten

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Yes, it's true, and in fact most of the Italian minors have merc maintenance discount (-15%)

Yes, but the Italian minors all share one NI group. Besides, as I said, having low Army Professionalism (at the start) give -15% merc maintenance and +15% available mercs. EU4 is placed in the time-frame when the Italian States (along with all of Europe, but still a bit behind in this process) change their army paradigm from a feudal levy militia + semi-professional mercenaries to a modern professional army of conscripts. Which is what Army Professionalism models. For the ones that do not have CoC DLC there is that idea about merc maintenance. Imo, this is fine.

I’m not saying that the way mercenaries or Condottieri works are perfect and do not need changes, especially mercenaries.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Savoy, Milan, Florence also have -15% merc maintenance.

Schiavoni is a little too generic, may be we can consider the corps of "Fanti da Mar"
They are the same thing, Schiavoni/Oltramarini/Fanti da Mar are all just different name for the standing marine backbone to the Venetian army established in 1204.
 

Golladan

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The Trade Behemoth mission seems problematic. In part because it could easily require conquering most of the world, and in part because conquering the CoT will cause it to get downgraded.
 

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The Trade Behemoth mission seems problematic. In part because it could easily require conquering most of the world, and in part because conquering the CoT will cause it to get downgraded.

It’s the final mission of the worldwide branch. It can be interpreted in two ways:
-if you do not have Dharma DLC then you must have all of the 4 level 3 CoT (two in Italy, easy, and two in India, less easy but at that point you could easily reach both). And that’s it.
-if you own Dharma DLC the requirements gets easier on one hand and more difficult on the other to obtain. On one hand, conquering a CoT downgrades it, but on the other hand whoever has at least 1000 ducats can upgrade a level 2 CoT forcing you to stomp them to downgrade the CoT. It’s more varied, but you can force-release nations, give the CoT to allies or vassals, return cores other that conquering the CoT yourself. It’s not forcing you to do a quasi-world conquest, it adapts to different play styles imho.
 

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They are the same thing, Schiavoni/Oltramarini/Fanti da Mar are all just different name for the standing marine backbone to the Venetian army established in 1204.

This would require a special unit only for Venice which has bonuses in naval landings and capturing coastal forts. This could be useful in Singleplayer but in Multiplayer would be very marginal. I’m all for it, but I do not think this is the dev’s opinion as well.