Virtuality's endgame

[cryptkeeper]

I think they should force Virtual ascension to build a server on the planet that they have to upgrade to support more free pops and your pops should ascend as you have space for them. That way you don't instantly loose all your pops. Additional servers should be how you get hit with penalties. That way it reduces the insane spike spiritualist individual robots get from rushing it. It would also allow you to get other pops and/or keep some of your pops not virtual, allowing you to expand if you wish just with none of the bonuses.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

The entire idea is to give an avenue to shrink the free cake.

The true identity of virtual, imo, is the “pops are instantly created and destroyed” part. The fact that they added the dynamic output bonus and the focus policies is secondary; it may be where the power is in the ascension, but it’s not the core identity of it.

Right now, every planet has the virtual behavior and that means there’s not much space to tweak numbers; either it’ll be a strong power spike or it’ll be a whimper. This is bad design, in my opinion.

By making that something the player controls we can do a lot more - your machine pops can exist on other planets and not be subject to virtual behavior. I would much rather virtual worlds have a strong throughput bonus and more jobs from districts and/or buildings, then just slapping +100% resources on twice.

For example, you can get similar tall math by having the “virtual data nexus” offer a bonus like the identity preservation center - a number of percentage points split across each copy you have. And then you could add the quadratic upkeep penalty and get the exact same tension the virtual trait currently offers.

Virtual economy policies don’t have to exist, but if they do, instead of “+100% research from jobs!!1!” they could be “+30% output/upkeep” or even “+1 job from research labs.”

That’s a design space we can work with. Because throughput and density require you to think about where the inputs come from for your super duper worlds.

I gather that the goal of the ascension was to be an actually tall option, for once.

To do this, either you let an empire of just virtual super-worlds be strong enough for tall to be viable (in which case keeping those worlds even as your non-virtual empire expands beyond them is broken), or you nerf those worlds so that they're no longer broken for wide, but also no longer good enough to be a full empire on their own.

 

[Grandpa Maur]

I just assumed virtuality endgame lies in liberal use of world cracking colossus.

When the galaxy has dozen habitable planets total, your 6 are no longer too few!

 

[Lorenerd11]

Personally, I would prefer a way to have both virtual and non-virtual colonies, where non-virtual colonies do not count towards virtual pop productivity penalties.

Virtual colonies could be created either through a planetary decision, or by constructing a special planet unique "server" building.

And non-virtual colonies would have non-virtual pops only. That way you still have some options to expand, it's just that the non-virtual colonies won't benefit from virtual ascension.

That said, I guess that would go against the intended "tall" playstyle somewhat?

 

[Carl_Bar]

I wouldn't be against an endgame way for Virtuality to increase how many colonies it can run, but it absolutely would have to be very, very, very endgame. Maybe they get a reduce scaling on repeatable tech costs?

 

[Nevars]

Vassal swarm is certainly a tall build so I don't know why you are icky about it.

End game answer to virtual empire problem is vassal swarm.

In fact, the past, present and future is vassal swarm :v

 

[mrt1212]

I gather that the goal of the ascension was to be an actually tall option, for once.

To do this, either you let an empire of just virtual super-worlds be strong enough for tall to be viable (in which case keeping those worlds even as your non-virtual empire expands beyond them is broken), or you nerf those worlds so that they're no longer broken for wide, but also no longer good enough to be a full empire on their own.

You basically have posted every response I would have and its frankly absurd how clearly you get it down to the accelerated Power Spike nomenclature, and many things being on the table after as THEE gimmick (but vassals, Megastructure, liberated fed mates by ideology, cosmogenesis), and its a great gimmick, and like people still can not let go of old paradigms or play it at face value.

Someone describing a moist semi sweet bread without yeast, as not cake, after a direct hit of wanting cake and eating it by marginal selection...

gnawing my arm off all afternoon to post about the off the wall baggage of 'ascension paths are about uberpops', like half the reason I hate ascensions as a play feature, and along comes a novel strategic finesse about full employment and accelerating domestic economy some 20 years, in a DLC out less than a week, and theres already ridiculous headcanon hatchet jobs that disrespect the most elegant thing in Stellaris I can recall...

Gaaaaawwwwwd

Appreciate you being my smarter sentimental proxy per usual

 

[MadDemiurg]

One more thing you can do if you're not Gestalt - reform to Megacorp and spam branch offices everywhere. Helps with nav cap too. You can also spam mercenary enclaves by stacking all the enclave civics and then switch out of them.

 

[Arphar]

Vassal swarm is certainly a tall build so I don't know why you are icky about it.

End game answer to virtual empire problem is vassal swarm.

In fact, the past, present and future is vassal swarm :v

The thing with vassal swarm is that it's essentially expansion, just without any of the maluses associated with it. It's bound to get nerfed at some point in the future.

I don't believe specific strategies should be attached to the item we are discussing, since other items may always change and thus become irrelevant.

Getting rid of all numbers and items that could change, is it truly wise to have an ascension that prevents you from expanding your economy ?

It is clearly an issue of design that puts it in a precarious spot, whether with the current implementation that prevents you from staying relevant later into the game after a strong midgame, or in a future iteration that may see such an advantage taken away by things that have better numbers that it, while you are left with a disadvantage, and one you can never escape from.

Personally, I would prefer a way to have both virtual and non-virtual colonies, where non-virtual colonies do not count towards virtual pop productivity penalties.

Virtual colonies could be created either through a planetary decision, or by constructing a special planet unique "server" building.

And non-virtual colonies would have non-virtual pops only. That way you still have some options to expand, it's just that the non-virtual colonies won't benefit from virtual ascension.

That said, I guess that would go against the intended "tall" playstyle somewhat?

This is an idea that circumvents the problem by not interacting with the ascension, which while it solves the problem it resembles more of a rubberband.

Imo one of the only ideas that make sense in order to interact correctly with the ascension would be a way to increase planet size/quality or perhaps have a way to increase the productivity bonus of virtual pops.

 

[MadDemiurg]

There's a way to increase productivity of any pops, it's called repeatables.

Planetary asension will also keep you busy for some time although it's capped at 10 so not indefinite. Virtuals even get +3 districts from fully ascending a planet.

 

[DamnedLackOfTropicalFruit]

i'm not really experiencing this issue

Virutality Ringworlds have 1.3x as many districts with 1.5x capacity, which is almost double the pop count of a normal ringworld. If you make one ringworld that's equivalent to 8 full ringworld segments on any other empire.
It's not like these are bad pops either - virtual pops have +100% to research, +1% from every clerk (and you have a lot of clerks), potentially around +50% if you stay tall. Meanwhile your empire size is never going above 50 because all your worlds are 10x ascended because you have a million unity from all the free trade value you're getting from the mass of clerks.

Hell, when you get your first ringworld up you probably print more pops than exist in half the galaxy. What endgame scaling are you comparing "I put half the pops in the galaxy onto 10x ascended ringworlds" to?

 

[Abdulijubjub]

i'm not really experiencing this issue

Virutality Ringworlds have 1.3x as many districts with 1.5x capacity, which is almost double the pop count of a normal ringworld. If you make one ringworld that's equivalent to 8 full ringworld segments on any other empire.
It's not like these are bad pops either - virtual pops have +100% to research, +1% from every clerk (and you have a lot of clerks), potentially around +50% if you stay tall. Meanwhile your empire size is never going above 50 because all your worlds are 10x ascended because you have a million unity from all the free trade value you're getting from the mass of clerks.

Hell, when you get your first ringworld up you probably print more pops than exist in half the galaxy. What endgame scaling are you comparing "I put half the pops in the galaxy onto 10x ascended ringworlds" to?

Yup it becomes about finding bigger colonies: upgrading everything to ecus, searching for a few bigger planets for even better ecus, then swapping to ring worlds for half your pops once they're unlocked. Only with Cybrex, I think, do you cap out particularly early.

If you build up your planets and then just say "eh, don't feel like doing anything else" you'll be done, but it definitely scales.

Two size 30 ecus completely full of pops will be over 500 pops, and 4 ringworld segments will be another 1000. 1500 pops is pretty small for a late game empire, but it's not like it's tiny.

And unlike with normal empires, relocating from your original size 20 capital to a size 30 ecu is actually a huge boost to your empire (and well worth the effort), unlike normally when you could just encase a second world and be done with it.

 

[Sweeze]

Yeah, I don't understand people who underestimate Virtuality. Everyone loves to discuss pop growth modifiers, comparing net pop growth rates of various ascensions, taking advantage of builds that steal pops. Virtuality gives you effectively ***infinite*** pop growth rate with no downside of overpopulation. For your average wide empire even on growth-maximizing builds you'll enter the mid to late game with 90% of your planets at like 30 pops apiece and 1 or 2 full ecus and ringworld segments. Virtuality makes more of those jobs, fills them instantly, and improves them further.

Aside from that, you can always still leech resources from vassals, or if you don't like vassals and just want to conquer then you can kindly redirect the population of half the galaxy into your synaptic lathe.

 

[mrt1212]

Yup it becomes about finding bigger colonies: upgrading everything to ecus, searching for a few bigger planets for even better ecus, then swapping to ring worlds for half your pops once they're unlocked. Only with Cybrex, I think, do you cap out particularly early.

If you build up your planets and then just say "eh, don't feel like doing anything else" you'll be done, but it definitely scales.

Two size 30 ecus completely full of pops will be over 500 pops, and 4 ringworld segments will be another 1000. 1500 pops is pretty small for a late game empire, but it's not like it's tiny.

And unlike with normal empires, relocating from your original size 20 capital to a size 30 ecu is actually a huge boost to your empire (and well worth the effort), unlike normally when you could just encase a second world and be done with it.

Virtuality is even better as a gimmick for the emergent 'hermit crab' gameplay? Ill take two virtualities!

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Virtuality is even better as a gimmick for the emergent 'hermit crab' gameplay? Ill take two virtualities!

New plan: when a larger Virtuality empire vacates their previous ecu (that's bigger than your current planet) because they found a bigger one they wanted to use instead, you have to claim it for yourself.

Hermit crab achievement incoming.

 

[Wintermist]

I just finished a virtual playthrough, and all I used was a single habitat and arc furnace and swarms. If I had built up 5 habs I can't even imagine what I could have done, I couldn't ever say this is a weak ascension. Perhaps it falls off on harder difficulties but on normal gameplay I can't think of anything that outperforms it.

 

[GnoSIS]

One more thing you can do if you're not Gestalt - reform to Megacorp and spam branch offices everywhere. Helps with nav cap too. You can also spam mercenary enclaves by stacking all the enclave civics and then switch out of them.

Vassalize, Conquest and release/split more vassals, throw offices everywhere, change agrerements for what you need most, and watch that trade go brrr....

 

[Hansatron]

I just finished a virtual playthrough, and all I used was a single habitat and arc furnace and swarms. If I had built up 5 habs I can't even imagine what I could have done, I couldn't ever say this is a weak ascension. Perhaps it falls off on harder difficulties but on normal gameplay I can't think of anything that outperforms it.

Virtual has a big power spike, a really, really big one. But then you have to do something with it to take advantage - either cosmogenesis, or conquest. Those are both independently strong strategies right now.

Because in the long run, without Cosmo, other options - modularity in particular - will eclipse it. Cosmo gives you a way to win while staying in a corner and really taking advantage of power spikes.

That’s sort of the issue. It’s powerful in the way that the Grand Herald was on release.

Virtuality has mechanics that are interesting. +100% research by policy isn’t interesting. There is no reason we can’t have the ascension give strong buffs to a handful of worlds, giving you the tall gameplay, without being such a stark limitation on your empire.

 

[Incompetent]

Virtual has a big power spike, a really, really big one. But then you have to do something with it to take advantage - either cosmogenesis, or conquest. Those are both independently strong strategies right now.

Because in the long run, without Cosmo, other options - modularity in particular - will eclipse it. Cosmo gives you a way to win while staying in a corner and really taking advantage of power spikes.

Part of the problem here is that Cosmogenesis is such a no-brainer for everyone, regardless of what other choices you make. It's not really an alternative to conquest, it's just a generic "make me stronger" button.

If you're committed to staying in a corner, I'm not sure Modularity will eclipse Virtuality, with or without Cosmogenesis. Cosmogenesis is incredibly strong with whichever ascension you're using, as long as you're prepared to use the Lathe (still possible will staying in a corner because the neural chips can come to you, e.g. as refugees). It's the first time I've played a game as Fanatic Pacifist, deliberately boxed myself in with galaxy settings (managed to take 3 non-home planets before the borders sealed up), and still felt overpowered (albeit with enough Lathe usage to make me hated as genocidal). If you're being properly ethical/diplomatic, meaning no conquest, purging or dangerous experiments, then Cosmogenesis is a lot slower (and you have to be careful with when you level up, so as not to piss off Fallen Empires before you have enough fleet to keep them at bay), but probably you still may as well take it for the better ships and buildings, even if you never plan to board the Horizon Needle. Even for purely diplomatic purposes, sure you suffer a moderate opinion penalty, but "relative power of empires" means a lot more in practice for the AI's decision-making.

On the other hand, Cosmogenesis gives even more power to aggressive empires than it does to peaceful/diplomatic ones, since they have less motivation for restraint; about the only argument you can make against taking it is that Nemesis might get the job done quicker, although I'm not sure even that holds up, given how long it takes to complete the Aetherophasic Engine. The Lathe's research gets watered down a bit by sprawl, but not enough to make up for the larger number of xenos you can toss into the Lathe, given how fast Lathe production scales. The ships are not just for diplomatic leverage now, you can actually use them to crush everyone in battle. Similarly, while the Fallen Empire buildings are already very useful in a "tall" empire with only a handful of colonies, they basically turn the game into infinite money mode when you can properly spam them.

 

[FleetingRain]

The Virtuality policy feels tacked on to me.

No, I will not elaborate (because this is a vibes-based comment).