VIP - South America

[unmerged(66785)]

That was done because evidently the Argentine government did not have any official claims on the islands.

 

[Emp_Palpatine]

The Islands are claimed since the British take over in 1833... Does 1982 war rings a bell?

And if even if there were no active claim, Germany do not claim Sudetenland in Vicky time frame, but it's still on of its cores in the game.

 

[unmerged(66785)]

Take it up with OHGamer.

 

[Emp_Palpatine]

We'll see if he does answer here.

 

[unmerged(66785)]

He normally does in the same day or next.

 

[OHgamer]

I *think" the core was not placed because of the potential that an AI-AI war between ARG and EnG could result, and make it difficult to keep relations good (which in the period of Victoria, were in general quite good for most of the period). So while the Argentines might have claimed the Falklands, it was not a dire necessity claim, and it was not allowed to ruin an otherwise generally well-functioning relationship with Britain.

Considering the fact that Generalisimo is Argentine, if having a core on the islands was not seen as being detrimental to AI behavior I'm sure it would have been added in.

 

[Emp_Palpatine]

I *think" the core was not placed because of the potential that an AI-AI war between ARG and EnG could result, and make it difficult to keep relations good (which in the period of Victoria, were in general quite good for most of the period). So while the Argentines might have claimed the Falklands, it was not a dire necessity claim, and it was not allowed to ruin an otherwise generally well-functioning relationship with Britain.

Considering the fact that Generalisimo is Argentine, if having a core on the islands was not seen as being detrimental to AI behavior I'm sure it would have been added in.

All right, gameplay and other reasons seems good to me. I just wondered why VIP hadn't implemented it.

 

[sanmartin]

All right, gameplay and other reasons seems good to me. I just wondered why VIP hadn't implemented it.

Argentina's claim on the Falklands has only become a major aspect of politics in the XXth century, and it was due largely to the political needs of the '76-83 dictatorship, who needed a good distraction for the population (Resulting of course in that disastrous war)

 

[Celdur]

I can help

Hello everyone, i've read some of the pages in this threat(5 in the begginng and 2 in the end) and i'd like to know how is the "Wealth from Guano" for Perú is going to be treated? you know it was like 80% or 90% of the world's oil was in peruvian shores it gave us a huge amount of money for 30 years. Even if it was not used correctly it still made Peru the first south american country to have trains and railroads, actually peru invested heavly on railroads (but a train in the mountains doesn't do much good) Also i'd like to throw in a piece of history many of you may not know. Peru sent some ships and marines and actually landed in US California to protect its assets after news of riots reached the country. Maybe you guys would like to investigate that event.

Another thing, why does peru, bolivia and chile have South Andean as a national culture? If the bolivians would've wanted to stay in peru they wouldn't have separated in 1824 and we've had some wars with chile (war of the confederation and pacific war) for us to be completly diferent, sure in the viceroyalty we were more or less alike but afterwards the way the 2 countries conducted their government's was completly different.

Also i think that most of the amazon should be open for colonization, as neither Brazil nor any other country had a firm hold on the inner parts of the amazon rainforest. Historically Brazil got it because noone else cared for it and they already had a policy for the administration of the jungle (as an example Peru has the Andean mountains as a barrier to even get to the jungle, same with Bolivia or Colombia that made it more difficult, historically)

Anyways, i think you are doing a great job and i'd be happy to help in anyway i can.

 

[Garra-Ush]

Argentina's claim on the Falklands has only become a major aspect of politics in the XXth century, and it was due largely to the political needs of the '76-83 dictatorship, who needed a good distraction for the population (Resulting of course in that disastrous war)

But in 1838(IIRC), Rosas was asked about the possibility of claming the Falklands. He said no and until the early XX century, nobody else tought about the islands.
After the WWI, United Kingdom offered to give the islands as a pay to Argentina because of all the food they sold them during the war.
Argentinean government refused and asked the British to pay by improving the railroad network and giving some of the railroad earnings to Argentina.
Finally, after the Wall Street Crash in 1929 and with out the possibility of paying with money, United Kingdom offered the government the islands if they paid a not very big ammount of money(I don't remember how much).
The government refused and asked them to pay the debt money.

In the end, UK didn't pay and Argentinean government didn't take any further action until Peron took the Railroads and made them property of Argentina.

 

[Herbert West]

I have had a wierd flirt with immigration as Brazil right now.

Between 189x and 1910, immigrant came about a thousand a day, knocking on my door like there is no freaking tomorrow. But they all went to one, thats right, one state, Minas Gerais, which, although has one goldmine, the rest are cattle and coffe RGOs. So many immigrants came that I have about 60 factory slots in that province, all filled with now-brazilian immigrants (full citizenship, prularism, avg. healthcare).

Then, they stopped. I modified the reforms to low in everything, no max work hours, and good healthcare, and still nothing, only a trickle of about 100 POPs a month, also only into the state of MG.

Now, i reloaded, and the immigrants come again, with about 200-300 POPs a day.

Is this wierdness part of the core Vicky code, or is something fudged in VIP?

 

[OHgamer]

no clue Herbert West. could very well be something hiccuped, or a nation like USA got events that rose plurality and thus brought the immigration stream to it for a period, and if your save was before that event or invention for the USA, it may not have fired once you reloaded.

All I can say is we recommend save and reload every couple years to "clear" the game engine, mainly for purposes of ensuring events are not skipped, but it might be that something was miscalculated in the game engine before your save & restart and was calculated correctly on your reload.

 

[LlywelynII]

A couple of notes on Uruguay -

• Currently Uruguay has cores on the province to its northeast along the coast in Brazil, whereas historically it had claims to the province to its northwest along the Uruguay, the Eastern Missions. [edit: Sao Borja]
  
• Currently Brazil and Argentina almost inevitably both guarantee Uruguayan independence, whereas Brazil was indifferent and Argentina spent the first dozen or so years of the game besieging the country.
  
  If the state of war with Argentina can't be included because it would regularly lead to ahistorical annexation, punishing events to symbolize the raids would still be appropriate.
  
  At the very least, Argentina needs cores on the Uruguayan provinces, although these could possibly removed through event after a few years establish Uruguayan legitimacy.
  
• The "Declaration of Independence" of Uruguay actually was a declaration of the country's unity with Argentina - the establishment of a new country was effectively the work of the British diplomats at the peace conference.
  
  Britain should be close (possibly a guarantee of independence that would become active after existing hostilities with Argentina end, if Rosas's war is included) but there should be a punishing event the first time a protectionist party comes to power as Britain reacts to the limiting of her influence over the country.
  
• I'm not sure why but currently the ingame VIP flag is the Artigas flag of the Liga Federal, although the National Flag of Uruguay was adopted in 1828 and should be in use throughout the period of the game, in addition to looking much nicer. If we're going for novelty, the Flag of the 33 would be the way to go.
  
• However, the smaller Artigas flag could be used for individual units, as it is apparently a common emblem/battle-flag of the Uruguayan military. Players might be confused about the discrepancy, but they'll figure it out.
  
• Also, the Liga Federal would allow a Uruguay who claimed its mantle (possibly after a truly democratic government inspired Artigas to return from his Paraguayan exile) to have claims on the Argentine mesopotamian provinces.

Mebbe some others I'm forgetting at the moment...

Edit: Actually, General Manuel Oribe of the Blancos revolted in 1835, but Rosas didn't invade until 1843 (and then kept Montevideo under siege until 1851.) Possibly a trade-off for the player? Empowering the Blancos or allowing free elections (almost certainly ensuring a Blanco win) calls off the coming Argentine punishments (by event or invasion) but at the cost of severely straining ties with the British, whom the player would be currying favor with for trade, tech trades, etc.

I was going to suggest corruption events, but I supposed they'd only be appropriate to a presidential dictatorship that wasn't doing much policing, which should take care of itself by simple game mechanics.

Edit: Reading more, it turns out Oribe was president in 1836 (so the Blancos should be in power & Argentina should like the current Uruguayan gov't) but Rivera forced him out in 1838 - military/liberal trade off? - which led to his rebellion and then the Argentines...

Edit: From the Uruguayan Civil War article:

Oribe took Rosas's side when the French navy blockaded Buenos Aires in 1838. This led the Colorados and the exiled Unitarios to seek French backing against Oribe and on June 15, 1838, an army led by the Colorado leader Rivera overthrew the president, who fled to Argentina.

 

[Quanto]

Some additional South America Events for V.I.P.

I threw together a bunch of events for Chile and Peru for the War of the Pacific. Along with some slight modifications to the Cincha Islands War. Suggestions and Improvements are welcome! Enjoy.

From the spain file:

########################################
#  The Capture of the Covadonga  - by Scythe# 		#new june 2004#
########################################
event = {
	id = 269063
	random = no
	country = SPA

#Triggered by CHL

	name = "The Capture of the Covadonga"
	desc = "The Chilean steam corvette 'Esmeralda', in a a cunning action of Captain Juan Williams Rebolledo, captured the Spanish gunboat 'Virgen de Covadonga', providing the means to decipher the Spanish signal code. Upon hearing of this event by way of the American consul, Admiral Pareja committed suicide and was replaced by Captain (promoted to Admiral) Casto Méndez Nuñez of the ironclad 'Numancia'."
	style = 0

	action_a = {
		name = "How unfortunate..."
		command = { type = prestige value = -10 } #This is a major embarrassment
		}
}

Additions to Peru Flavor:

####################################
# The Knight of the Seas by Quanto #
####################################
# The Peruvian Navy #
#####################

event = {
	id = 242040
	random = no
	country = PEU
	
	trigger = { 
		OR = {
		stronger_navy = { country = SPA country = PEU }
		war = { country = SPA country = PEU }
		}
		
	name = "The Peruvian Navy"
	desc = "Historically Peru had a small but up-to-date navy capible of dealing plenty of damage. This force was en-route to peru during the infamous Chincha Islands War. Five Ironclads were bought and constructed in foreign shipyars, among them the Renowned 'Huáscar'. While two monitors were built from scratch in Peruvian ports (to save money). Around the same time, Admiral Miguel Grau Seminario was coming into his own as a fine Naval Commmander."
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1864 }
	offset = 30
        deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1870 }

	action_a = {
		name = "This is neccessary."
		command = { type = treasury value = -1000 }
		command = { type = leader which = 16801 } # The Great Admiral Grau
		command = { type = gain_tech which = 2103 }
		command = { type = add_division which = monitor value = none }
		command = { type = add_division which = monitor value = none }
		command = { type = add_division which = ironclad value = none }
		command = { type = add_division which = ironclad value = none }
		command = { type = add_division which = ironclad value = none }
		command = { type = add_division which = ironclad value = none }
		command = { type = add_division which = ironclad value = none }
		command = { type = prestige value = 10 } # The world is Impressed with Peru's Resolve
		ai_chance= = 80
		}
	action_b = {
		name = "We can't afford this..."
		command = { type = prestige value = -2 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 242040 }
		}
	}

##################
# Almirante Grau #
##################
event = {
	id = 242041
	random = no
	country = PEU
	
	trigger = { 
		leader = 16801
		war = { country = PEU country = CHL }
		}
		
	name = "Almirante Grau"
	desc = "When the war against Chile began on 5 April 1879, Miguel Grau held the rank of Capitán de Navio in the Peruvian Navy and was in command of the ironclad Huáscar. Capitán Grau played an important role in the sea campaign by interdicting Chilean lines of communication and supply, damaging, capturing or destroying several enemy vessels, and bombarding port installations. Commanded by Grau, Huáscar became famed for moving stealthily, striking by surprise and then disappearing. These actions put off a Chilean invasion by sea for six months and resulted in his promotion to the rank of Contra-Almirante (Rear Admiral)."
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1878 }
	offset = 30
        deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1879 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Such Leadership is the Stuff of Legends"
		command = { type = leadership value = 10 } # 
		command = { type = max_elan which = ironclad value = 10 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = monitor value = 10 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = manowar value = 10 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = frigate value = 10 }
		command = { type = prestige value = 3 } # His character is a reflection of the whole nation.
		}
	}

###################
# Grau's Chivalry #
###################
event = {
	id = 242041
	random = no # Triggered by the Battle of Iquique
	country = PEU
		
	name = "Grau's Actions"
	desc = "At the Battle of Iquique, Grau rescued the crew of the Chilean Corvette 'Esmeralda' that had just been sunk by Huáscar. He later wrote condolences to the widow of his opponent Arturo Prat (the Esmeralda's Captian), returning his sword and personal effects."
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1878 }
	offset = 30
        deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1879 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Truly the Knight of the Seas"
		command = { type = prestige value = 6 } # His character is a reflection of the whole nation.
		command = { type = trigger which = 138035 }
		}
	}

#####################
# Battle of Angamos #
#####################
event = {
	id = 242042
	random = no #triggered by Hunt for Huascar
	country = PEU

	name = "Battle of Angamos - Grau's Heroism"
	desc = "Six Chilean ships were directed with the sole purpose of sinking or capturing the Peruvian vessel. An ambush had been set up, carefully planned by dividing the Fleet in two: one near the Bolivian coast and the other part waiting for instructions. On October 8, 1879, near Punta de Angamos, the first part of the fleet, led by the Cochrane spotted the Huáscar and the corvette Unión. After ordering the Unión to look for a safe port, Admiral Grau prepared his ship for battle. The ironclad made the first shot at a distance of nearly 2,000 meters. None were capable of damaging the Cochrane. From the same distance Cochrane fired its first discharge of the battle. Its second shot hit Huáscar directly in the bridge, killing Admiral Grau and some of his senior officers. Another shot cut an important part of the helm, leaving the ship without control. Several members of the surviving staff (Elías Aguirre, Melitón Carvajal and Diego Garezón) led the ironclad until the end of the battle. Nearly two hours after the beginning of combat, when it became clear that the ship would be captured, the remaining crew of the ironclad made the decision to scuttle it rather than surrender it. However, the ship was captured nonetheless, and prevented from sinking. The capture of the Huáscar brought an end to the sea campaign of the War of the Pacific. From this point forward, the Chilean navy was able to use the Huáscar as one of its own ships."

	action_a = {
		name = "His name will be preserved for generations!"
		command = { type = prestige value = 2 } # The battle was lost, but many credit Peru's resolve.
		command = { type = pop_militancy which = 50 value = -5 } # National Unity
		command = { type = pop_consciousness which = 50 value = 2 } # the People are more involved in their country
		command = { type = max_elan which = infantry value = 5 } # The army will fight on!
		command = { type = max_elan which = cavalry value = 5 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = dragoon value = 5 }	# No naval bonuses, the Navy is finished
		command = { type = delete_unit which = -3 } # Random Naval Unit destroyed
		command = { type = sleepleader which = 16801 } # A great man has died
		}
}

And finally, for Chile:

###############################
# The Exploits of Arturo Prat #
##################################################
# Arturo Prat petitions the Government by Quanto #
##################################################
event = {
	id = 138034
	random = no
	country = CHL

	name = "A Young Officer Petitions the Government"
	desc = "While Second Commander of the Esmeralda, Arturo Prat had been sent to the Naval School as an Instructor and would later be promoted to several other positions. From 1871 to 1874 he taught there with dedication and on several occasions had petitioned the government over the lack of available teaching resources."
	style = 0

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1871 } 
	offset = 60
        deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1874 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Support this Man"
		command = { type = treasury value = -1000 }
		command = { type = literacy value = 0.03 }
		command = { type = leadership value = 4 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 138034 }
		}	
	action_b = {
		name = "We cannot afford the Costs"
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 138034 }
		}
	}

#####################################
# Naval Battle of Iquique by Quanto #
#####################################
event = {
	id = 138034
	random = no
	country = CHL

	trigger = {
		war = { country = CHL country = PEU }
		}

	name = "The Battle of Iquique"
	desc = "During May 1879, the main ships of the Chilean Navy were sent towards the Peruvian port of Callao in order to destroy its navy, while two old, wooden ships the corvette Esmeralda and the schooner Covadonga, commanded by Captains Arturo Prat and Carlos Condell respectively were left blockading the Peruvian port of Iquique. However, as the Chilean Navy steamed north towards Callao, two ironclad ships of the Peruvian Navy steamed south from Callao, unseen. These ships were the monitor Huáscar and the armored frigate Independencia, commanded by Admiral Miguel Grau and Captain Juan Guillermo More. The naval battle of Iquique was a Peruvian tactical victory; the blockade on Iquique was lifted and Chile temporarily left the area."
	
	date = { day = 21 month = may year = 1879 }
	offset = 3
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = august year = 1879 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Drat!"
		command = { type = prestige value = -3 } # Leaving two ancient ships to blockade a port was a poor decision
		command = { type = trigger which = 242041 }
		}
	}

##################
# Prat's Heroism #
##################
event = {
	id = 138035
	random = no #triggered by Grau's Chivalry
	country = CHL

	name = "A National Hero"
	desc = "As the 'Esmeralda' was being picked to peices by the Peruvian Ironclad 'Huascar' the young Chilean Capitan, Arturo Prat launched a daring attempt to board the Peruvian warship. Dressed in his parade uniform, he gave his last order "Al abordaje muchachos!" ("To boarding, boys!"), but it was muffled by the sound of the Huascar's metal crushing the Esmeralda's wood, and thus heard and answered by only two sailors; both were killed by gunfire on the enemy ship's deck. Prat received an impact on the knee but managed to stand and kill one Lieutenant shortly before being killed himself by another of Huascar's crew. His actions inspired another Boarding attempt by his crew but that too was quickly put down. The Esmeralda finally sank to the bottom with the Chilean flag being the last to touch the water. The heroic death of Captain Prat inspired thousands of Chilean youth to join the army."

	action_a = {
		name = "His actions will be an inspiration for us all!"
		command = { type = prestige value = 2 } 
		command = { type = pop_militancy which = 50 value = -5 } # National Unity
		command = { type = pop_consciousness which = 50 value = 5 } # the People are more involved in their country
		command = { type = max_elan which = infantry value = 5 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = cavalry value = 5 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = dragoon value = 5 }	
		command = { type = max_elan which = ironclad value = 5 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = monitor value = 5 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = frigate value = 10 }
		command = { type = max_elan which = manowar value = 10 }
		}
}

##################################
# The Hunt for Huascar by Quanto #
##################################
event = {
	id = 138036
	country = CHL
	
	trigger = {
		war = { country = CHL country = PEU }
		}

	date = { day = 8 month = october year = 1879 }
	offset = 3
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = november year = 1879 }

	name = "The Hunt for the Huascar"
	desc = "After the Naval Battle of Iquique, the Peruvian ironclad Huáscar made several incursions challenging the Chilean naval dominion, attacking ports along its entire coast and capturing transports. This sole ship was preventing Chile from invading Bolivian and Peruvian territory, and did so successfully for nearly five months. No attempt to disembark troops could be made, because the Huáscar was preventing the entire Chilean Navy from taking control of the sea. Because Chile's plan was to achieve naval supremacy, prior to invading Bolivian and/or Peruvian territory, the Huáscar had to be eliminated along with Admiral Grau. Several efforts were made in order to capture or sink Huáscar, but none succeeded. Finally, nearly six months after the naval combat of Iquique, the opportunity came for the Chilean Navy."

	action_a = {
		name = "Corner and defeat her!"
		command = { type = trigger which = 138037 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 242042 }
		}
	}

#####################
# Battle of Angamos #
#####################
event = {
	id = 138037
	country = CHL

	name = "Battle of Angamos - Grau's Heroism"
	desc = "The Chilean Fleet ambushed and defeated the Huascar, killing Admiral Grau as well. Huáscar was captured by the Chileans after incurring severe casualties in the close-range artillery battle. Although most of Grau's body was not recovered, his remains were buried with full military honours in Chile, out of respect for his strong character and Knightly Chivalry."

	action_a = {
		name = "He was a great man..." # No prestige bonus for this one. Grau was too internationally respected
		command = { type = add_division which = ironclad value = none }
		}
}

Download Zip: Woot!

 

[OHgamer]

Thread moved to vip forum

will take a look at these for inclusion in the next VIP.

 

[Celdur]

I'm gratefull for this events, if i knew how to i'd made some myself.

One suggestion is to implement the Wealth from Guano event more accuratly. It was a very big thing that made Peru very important in the decades before the Pacific War.

There are many events that can be included, that involve the whole western coast of SA as Peru waves its guano/influence at them.

Even an intervention by peruvian ships in California.

 

[HisMajestyBOB]

The War of Triple Alliance events currently really irritate me. First some background:

I'm playing as Brazil, and early on I invade Paraguay and take all but their capital and the two provinces south of it - I did this because I was ten years into the game, and they still only had one division, so I figured if they didn't want their own army, they could host mine. Uruguay had also allied to them, so I satellited Uruguay without taking any provinces. I had hoped that Argentina would invade and finish off Paraguay, but that never happened.

Fast forward to the 1860s and the Triple alliance war - I've since been industrializing and built my army up a bit, plus I had 8 Divisions that could be mobilized if needed. Paraguay gets the war events and declares war on me, which also gave them a few more divisions in order to make things interesting. "Great!" I thought, "Paraguay has a last resurgence before I completely annihilate them!". I get an event that forces me to cede control over Miranda to Paraguay - which is weird since none of Paraguay's provinces border it - but I retake it without trouble. After I reinforce all my armies (my first invasion of Asuncion went badly, due to their good troops and my divisions being at half-strength) my mobilization finally finishes October 4th, and I invade their two northern provinces in strength.

Suddenly the "Lopez dies!" event occurs, bringing me to peace with Paraguay without option. "Too bad, I'll just crush them later and sell their provinces to Argentina". Then Uruguay gets the "War has ended" event, which cancels my military access with them - odd, since they're still my satellite - the event should check for that. Then I get the peace treaty event, which forces me to cede all the provinces I had taken from them in 1840s! I'd built factories and RR in those provinces! And it cedes them without any option at all!! Really, nothing is more frustrating than events like that, especially since the supposed 'victory' ended up with Paraguay having more provinces than before the war began!

After using Neville to get most of my provinces back (it'll take 2 separate negotiations), Argentina gets one of their Paraguayan provinces from me through event, too, forcing me to Neville them as well.


EDIT: Sorry if it sounds a bit hostile, but it was kinda frustrating. I think a good solution would be to have an option in the peace event, whether to accept the historical treaty, or continue the war and create your own treaty.

 

[Quanto]

Can you throw some english language historical references my way, I can autotranslate some spanish ones too, but i would rather not lose any info in the translation. South American History has always fascinated me, so whatever you could send me would be great. I'd rather not get everything from wikipedia

 

[Celdur]

Yes, certantly, of what exactly would you like me to elaborate?

I find it specially interesting the fate of the Peru-Bolivian confederation, as it involved many countries, namely Perú, Bolivia, Chile and Argentina.

and it paved the way for the future War of the Pacific and the destiny of Perú, Bolivia, Chile and Argentina.

And its impact on the rest of south américa.

For instance, Chile made sure Argentina stayed out of the War of the Pacific by giving them complete and total sovereinty over the Patagonia, before that Chile had every right to claim it as their own and it was a territory of 1,000,000 square kilometers.
that could be a flavor event, maybe the colonial outpost on the patagonia should be splitted between Chile and Argentina then, when the war starts Chile can ge given the option to offer them to Argentina in exchange for their neutrality, Argentina can either accept or refuse of course.

Then a few flavor events for the "secret treaty" between Perú and Bolivia wich also included Argentina, but it was refused in their congress. Another thing, one year before the war (at least i think it was 1 year before) Argentina proposed to Perú and Bolivia to join the treaty but it was refused.

There are many more events that can be included but tell me what do you think of these.

 

[Quanto]

I would love to work on all of those, but I am especially interested in details on how the guano economy in Peru functioned. The Peruvian intervention in California would also be a lot of fun to write. Also if you would be willing to toss around some Ahistorical ideas into the mix as well it would be great. I would also enjoy working on some more flavor events to help make the AI controlled South American countries more competitive.

The events as they are right now still cause some game-breaking errors so I hope to fix them soon, but I would love for you PM me with some more ideas, perhaps we could collaborate on a "South American Improvement Pack." I've been wanting to write one for HOI2 as well, but I think I will concentrate on VIP for now.

I would also like to note that I do not have Revolutions yet, so I can't really participate too heavily in the current versions of VIP, so maybe the VIP people would be willing to convert what I've got to improve compatibility?

Let me know what you think.