But problems between Buenos Aires people, and the rest of the country, specially the mountain provinces(Salta, Jujuy, Catamarca, La Rioja), is part of argentinean history, and avoiding them would be a bit ahistorical.
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Garra-ush has a point, there's considerable tension between people in the interior and "porteños". Keep in mind also that at the beginning of the game, the civil war was essentially still going on and that made relations between Buenos Aires and the rest of the provinces even more difficult. Although personally I feel that making those provinces South Andean isn't necessarily the best way of representing it, it's the best one available.OHgamer said:
There would have to be an event later on in the game that makes those pops platinean later on though, if they still belong to Argentina.
sanmartin said:
I think better would be to have events that raise POP mil in those states or have revolts in those states rather than splitting the POPs so they are South Andean. AFAIK there was no real movement to unite the NW of Argentina with say Peru, Bolivia or Chile that I know of, the struggle between Portenos and the rest of Argentina was more about federalist vs unitarian visions of an Argentine state, not splitting the NW away from Buenos Aires completely.
Makes sense, but there were also no major uprisings in the region either. Frankly, I think that making them South Andean might represent the cultural differences without exaggerating them and making them something that they weren't, namely, revolts and unrest. I also understand that to give Argentina South Andean as a state culture would completely unbalance the region since it would open up Bolivia, Chile and Peru to Argentine conquest, but that's why I suggested making the pops platinean at a later date.OHgamer said:
And while we have your attention here in the South America thread, have you had a chance to look through my unitarios party question?
See here
And while I'm at it, in addition to a possible Patagonia nation in, well, Patagonia, I think that we could also justify the inclusion of a placeholder indian nation in the Chaco, which was largely uncivilized at the start of the game. I'll consult my history books and give you my proposals for borders and stuff, but I'd like to know if you're interested before going through the trouble.
sanmartin said:
That's right. Chaco and some parts of Paraguay and Bolivia.
And also another indian country in the Amazonas
About the argentinean cultures, maybe it only needs some more events and militancy.
I understand that South America isn't exactly the most important region in the game, but considering that I'm trying to help, I feel that being ignored completely is a bit rude.
sanmartin said:
Sorry, myself having been in hospital recently and trying to get vip:r 0.2's main changes working right, i've not really had much time to focus on further new content.
At the same time, I'm not a specialist in South America, so it's not an area i can comment on. if you think the parties need to be reworked, create a list of modifications.
you also mentioned working on the Patagonia placeholder nation. This is something we hope to implement in VIP:R 0.3, so if you want to drop up a proposal of events to show the transfer of lands from Patagonia to Argentina and Chile that would be a good place to start.
Garra-Ush said:
work will start immediately after public release. And in fact you can start work on it now. It just will be 0.3 before it would be included.
USSA anyone?
Has VIP an event to South American countries to create Bolivarians dream, USSA aka United States of South America? I would love to unite whole continent under one power like USA on North America.
Has VIP an event to South American countries to create Bolivarians dream, USSA aka United States of South America? I would love to unite whole continent under one power like USA on North America.
AFAIK, there is not.
Actually, you can recreate some of the previous states of South American, such as Gran Colombia, Perou-Bolivia (with a blitzkrieg timing...), and La Plata.
But an Union of spanish-speaking country seems by fat too fantasy to be scrippted in VIP. It was quite unlikely: it's true that they all speak spanish, but that excepted, there are a lot of parochialism and "national identities" given the distance between those states, the differences in social set up (some states are "indian or melting-pot-esque (Bolivia, Perou...), other are "whites" (Argentine). And the fact that during the colonial era they were divided into vice-royalty (those states you can re-create with VIP) did not help to build a real national identity: each colony fought for its independence, with little help from others, not like in the US where all colonies fought together.
So my conclusion is: too fantasy.
Actually, you can recreate some of the previous states of South American, such as Gran Colombia, Perou-Bolivia (with a blitzkrieg timing...), and La Plata.
But an Union of spanish-speaking country seems by fat too fantasy to be scrippted in VIP. It was quite unlikely: it's true that they all speak spanish, but that excepted, there are a lot of parochialism and "national identities" given the distance between those states, the differences in social set up (some states are "indian or melting-pot-esque (Bolivia, Perou...), other are "whites" (Argentine). And the fact that during the colonial era they were divided into vice-royalty (those states you can re-create with VIP) did not help to build a real national identity: each colony fought for its independence, with little help from others, not like in the US where all colonies fought together.
So my conclusion is: too fantasy.
The La plata event is useless, the only advantage is you can form a monarchy. Whats the point of getting cores on Uruguayan, Bolivian, Paraguayan land if you need to conquer them all to annex first?
I think that the idea of an USSA would be and was imposible. Only to say that Argentina lucky survived as a country is to much to say. And the uruguayans formed a separate country when they are completely equal as us.
Imagine that if completely similar people couldn't be united, how about people completely diferent?
I think that if Bolivar and San Martin made a USSA, it wouldn't survived more than two years, and that's say much time.
Imagine that if completely similar people couldn't be united, how about people completely diferent?
I think that if Bolivar and San Martin made a USSA, it wouldn't survived more than two years, and that's say much time.
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It's the same for Gran Colombia. You have to conquer nation-states that had been there for decades etc. I think that VIP idea to give cores after conquest is good.TiggyFiggy said:
IMHO, the cores shall even be granted after one decade or two following annexation.
Well, if the player manages to conquer all of South America and holds it together despite everything, I think they earned being called the USSA. But it has to be really, really hard to keep it all together. Look at just Peru-Bolivia--if you can keep from being defeated by Argentina/Chile, it is incredibly difficult to keep the confederation from coming apart from the constant revolts. The USSA should be like that only 10x harder!
truth is life said:
Harder, fine, but wouldn't a federation of sorts give power and thus diminish revolt risks for the POPs within the USSA, compared to if you choose not to create it (Such as a conquering Empire)? In other words, Peru-Bolivia is hard, USSA harder, but not choosing to create the USSA is insane.
The USSA as a single, federated entity is impossible. One need only look so far as Peru-Bolivia, and even Argentina, to see that the problem stems from the expanse of the territory and more so the cultural and ethnic diversity within those huge borders.
Now imagine such a situation on a massive scale, it's unmanageable: You'd have the already marked difference between the Andine countries and the Plains country, then there's the Pacific/Atlantic/Caribbean differences, add to that the ethnic differences, wherein Colombia, Venezuela and Brazil all have significant black populations, the majority of the andine countries (as well as Paraguay) have significant aboriginal populations, and Argentina, Uruguay and to a lesser extent Chile all have remarkably European populations and even cultures.
With all this in mind, the idea of a USSA becomes impossibly idealistic, and that is without taking into account political and economic rivalries inherent in such a huge state: Why should Argentina accept a Paraguayan or Bolivian president, when economically neither country comes close to Argentina, or why should Brazil accept a Uruguayan president when Uruguay has a population and a territory equivalent to roughly 1% of Brazil's, or why should a majority indigenous country like Peru accept a white president, and so on and so forth.
Now imagine such a situation on a massive scale, it's unmanageable: You'd have the already marked difference between the Andine countries and the Plains country, then there's the Pacific/Atlantic/Caribbean differences, add to that the ethnic differences, wherein Colombia, Venezuela and Brazil all have significant black populations, the majority of the andine countries (as well as Paraguay) have significant aboriginal populations, and Argentina, Uruguay and to a lesser extent Chile all have remarkably European populations and even cultures.
With all this in mind, the idea of a USSA becomes impossibly idealistic, and that is without taking into account political and economic rivalries inherent in such a huge state: Why should Argentina accept a Paraguayan or Bolivian president, when economically neither country comes close to Argentina, or why should Brazil accept a Uruguayan president when Uruguay has a population and a territory equivalent to roughly 1% of Brazil's, or why should a majority indigenous country like Peru accept a white president, and so on and so forth.
Impossible or not, it would be a fun, alternate history to attempt, regardless of its basis in reality. "What-ifs", in my opinion, are always fun. However, I would not want to concentrate modders' time on an alternate history if there are more realistic issues waiting to be addressed.
knowwhutimean, Vergne?
The requirements to trigger such a monolithic entity would have to be huge, almost unattainable. Revolt events should be increased to make things almost unmanageable, and then the response of the Great Powers should be almost frenetic, in my opinion. I can see neither the US, GB, or France tolerating such an unholy union.
Would Brazil even be a part of such a political entity? Their culture speaks Portuguese, versus Spanish for the rest, does it not? Or, am I over-simplifying things?
Oh well. Doesn't really matter. There are too many historical events to fine tune right now to be overly concerned over the USSA at this time, IMHO.
knowwhutimean, Vergne?
The requirements to trigger such a monolithic entity would have to be huge, almost unattainable. Revolt events should be increased to make things almost unmanageable, and then the response of the Great Powers should be almost frenetic, in my opinion. I can see neither the US, GB, or France tolerating such an unholy union.
Would Brazil even be a part of such a political entity? Their culture speaks Portuguese, versus Spanish for the rest, does it not? Or, am I over-simplifying things?
Oh well. Doesn't really matter. There are too many historical events to fine tune right now to be overly concerned over the USSA at this time, IMHO.
From what I've read, the conceptual United States of South American as drawn up by Simon Bolivar in 1826 included Peru, Columbia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Panama, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Mexico.
Only then then-state of Gran Columbia ratified his Treaty of Union, League, and Perpetual Federation at the 1826 Congress of Panama. However, civil war in Gran Columbia and the breakup of the United Provinces of Central America ended any hope of the USSA becoming a reality.
So, Brazil would not be a prospective member of the USSA and any formation of it would probably antagonize them more than anything else.
The story may change, but the ending stays the same. The USSA is a huge hypothetical entity in South and Central America whose requirements would be astronomical and beyond the abilities of most of the nations in that part of the world to achieve on their own.
Don't get me wrong, it would be fun, just not exactly pratical.
Only then then-state of Gran Columbia ratified his Treaty of Union, League, and Perpetual Federation at the 1826 Congress of Panama. However, civil war in Gran Columbia and the breakup of the United Provinces of Central America ended any hope of the USSA becoming a reality.
So, Brazil would not be a prospective member of the USSA and any formation of it would probably antagonize them more than anything else.
The story may change, but the ending stays the same. The USSA is a huge hypothetical entity in South and Central America whose requirements would be astronomical and beyond the abilities of most of the nations in that part of the world to achieve on their own.
Don't get me wrong, it would be fun, just not exactly pratical.