VIP - South America

[Quarto]

IF he takes them all within a very short period of time and doesn't try to reduce his BB score...and any player, if he has gotten that far, can probably handle the situation just fine, can't he? Look at several of the tales in the AAR forum, for example. A little potential risk isn't too bad.

I agree, the action should be risky - but IMO, it would be better to do this using relation hits and scripted events (like the one Pimparel posted for BRZ) rather than badboy. I dislike badboy increases primarily because they're universal - so, Russia becomes just as alarmed by your actions as Brazil. It's still only a minor problem (because the BRZ AI is coded to be more concerned about ARG than Russia would be), but occasionally it produces weird results. And in the case of the Americas especially (considering the Monroe Doctrine), it is a good idea to ensure that it's only the countries with a direct interest in the area that feel concerned by the player's actions.

If the player decides to take no action, then I believe that the normal game rules should apply, because I see these events as something "extra", not a requirement.

Yep, I see your point... but consider that, if the player proclaims the Kingdom//Republic of La Plata, he is kind of stating that he's achieved his aims - that he wanted to recover the former viceroyalty, and now he's done with conquests. If he doesn't do this, however, you have a strange kind of vacuum - he's conquered those territories, but nobody knows what he wants to do with them, whether he's finished, or whether he now intends to conquer his other neighbours.

Still, that's just my viewpoint .

BTW, did Argentina have any local personalities that would have been considered qualified to be crowned king (after all, presidents or dictators have power, but not necessarily noble birth)? And if not, should there be an event where the new Kingdom chooses to invite one of the European royal families to take up the crown? I have no idea about this myself, though, so consider this more of a question than a suggestion.

In fact, I might consider doing something similar (just a bit weaker/toned down, since none of the countries involved have the equivalent interests/power that BRZ has in the area) for Gran Colombia too.

Well, depending on the timeframe, BRZ might have some interests in Gran Colombia (those two or three Colombian provinces that they get claims on). So might Peru (their late-game Equador claims). Most importantly, though, you might want to consider making alternative versions of the Gran Colombia events for the post-Panama Canal period. In this alternative version, Gran Colombia would almost inevitably run into trouble with the USA, who now has a major interest in the area.

(but then again, I guess there's going to be a Colombia-US event chain for the Panama Canal anyway, so maybe it's not necessary?)

 

[pimparel]

Just a small query, since my memory is a bit flawed and I can't check this at the moment...are you sure that this command is working ok (ie: not bugged. It would be weird if an army in Buenos Aires revolted, for example)?

		command = { type = army_revolt [B]which = 2651[/b] value = 55 } #Montevideo

Well... It works, however I never used with a which string, but this is still under WIP status, I will make something more 'big'.

 

[pimparel]

...And in the case of the Americas especially (considering the Monroe Doctrine), it is a good idea to ensure that it's only the countries with a direct interest in the area that feel concerned by the player's actions.

What!? Monroe Doctrine was barely enforced in that century.

BTW, did Argentina have any local personalities that would have been considered qualified to be crowned king (after all, presidents or dictators have power, but not necessarily noble birth)? And if not, should there be an event where the new Kingdom chooses to invite one of the European royal families to take up the crown? I have no idea about this myself, though, so consider this more of a question than a suggestion.

I read something about ROSAS wanting to reunite the 'La Plata', but I really doubt that a Monarchy would be created, I would put all my chips in a classic Pres_Dict.

Well, depending on the timeframe, BRZ might have some interests in Gran Colombia (those two or three Colombian provinces that they get claims on). So might Peru (their late-game Equador claims).

Brazil didn't had any interest in CLM, those provinces where bought, only after the rubber boom, whem some interest was developed in that region. Maybe if UCA is still around, they would have an interest too.

(but then again, I guess there's going to be a Colombia-US event chain for the Panama Canal anyway, so maybe it's not necessary?)

This is a must!

 

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And in the case of the Americas especially (considering the Monroe Doctrine), it is a good idea to ensure that it's only the countries with a direct interest in the area that feel concerned by the player's actions.

pimparel's right, in the sense that the Monroe doctrine, for the most part, did not really prevent European powers from getting involved in the region at different times, even if it did eventually serve to limit the potential extent of that involvement (off the top of my head....there's the case of Mexico, the case of Uruguay, the case of Venezuela, the case of Chile/Peru, the case of Haiti/Dominican Republic, and probably a few more).

Still, that's just my viewpoint .

Indeed, but its a respectable one. In any case, we will see what later testing/modifications do.

BTW, did Argentina have any local personalities that would have been considered qualified to be crowned king (after all, presidents or dictators have power, but not necessarily noble birth)? And if not, should there be an event where the new Kingdom chooses to invite one of the European royal families to take up the crown? I have no idea about this myself, though, so consider this more of a question than a suggestion.

It's an interesting but still debatable subject, to say the least...Rosas in particular had an interest, for example. But let's suppose that he, or any of a few other Argentinian leaders, really managed to concentrate enough power to conquer all these territories. If that happened, it wouldn't be the first time that a "dictator" or "first citizen" succumbed to the temptation of putting an artificial royal crown on his head (not even the first time in Latin America too).

So basically, it's all going to be a decision for the player...perhaps there could be an event to, eventually, consider inviting a true royal house to come and rule the country...but probably not in the period immediately following the conquest (maybe 5 or 10 years later).

Well, depending on the timeframe, BRZ might have some interests in Gran Colombia (those two or three Colombian provinces that they get claims on). So might Peru (their late-game Equador claims).

pimparel pretty much answered this one...I agree that PEU wouldn't be happy at the conquest of Ecuador, but it usually (not going to deny that there's a small chance) wouldn't cause an immediate crisis/DoW either (so it's not a BRZ-URU-ARG situation).

(but then again, I guess there's going to be a Colombia-US event chain for the Panama Canal anyway, so maybe it's not necessary?)

Yes, that's definitely on schedule, so we'll have to see how those events develop.

 

[Generalisimo]

So basically, it's all going to be a decision for the player...perhaps there could be an event to, eventually, consider inviting a true royal house to come and rule the country...but probably not in the period immediately following the conquest (maybe 5 or 10 years later).

I see that as something VERY difficult to happen...
Being a "new" country as we were in that time (our independence was in 1817 for the ones that do not know) i do not see as something posible to call one monarchy from Europe to rule us, we have just expelled the spaniards, it will be nonsense to call a new one to rule over us... i don't think this could have ever happened and will never be supported by the "people" (maybe you have some corrupt politician from that time that could have some benefits from this, but i doubt people would have followed him ).
Another idea that was proposed by San Martin was an incan ruler... and that was the cause why nobody liked that... because nobody wanted a "foreign indian ruler"

 

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Another idea that was proposed by San Martin was an incan ruler... and that was the cause why nobody liked that... because nobody wanted a "foreign indian ruler"

I see, as always you know more about this subject....then if anything, an "Incan" would the only "foreign" option that could ever be considered, with at least a fragment of possibility (it just would upset all the elites/wealthy classes, but maybe, it could make many among the indigenous feel a bit more "identified" with the new state, don't you think?).

 

[pimparel]

La Plata & Gran Colombia

Currently, the ARG and the CLM AI aren't able to achieve those objectives, so I am planning to add an event with a low random chance (like annual 5%), to load a more Aggressive AI to those countries.

Now the conditions would be? To ARG, the 'La Plata' was more something 'Rosas'-like, so I plan to check if ARG is PRES_DICT and if is prior 1860.

And Colombia, would be something similar?

 

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Three things first:

1. I updated the events list in the first post (might be missing a thing or two).
2. I'm currently working on Bolivia (1855-1879 gap has been filled with ~10 events which I'm trying to test and balance a bit, right now) and Peru (already beginning to script the "War" with Spain...and whatever else comes to mind).

Currently, the ARG and the CLM AI aren't able to achieve
those objectives, so I am planning to add an event with a low random chance (like annual 5%), to load a more Aggressive AI to those countries.

It's a nice idea to implement that, and it's good that you're giving it a low chance too.

Now the conditions would be? To ARG, the 'La Plata' was more something 'Rosas'-like, so I plan to check if ARG is PRES_DICT and if is prior 1860.

And Colombia, would be something similar?

Well, it'd be a bit different...Colombia only has one PRES_DICT contemplated and he didn't seem to be pro-"Gran Colombia", I think.

I'd think that the conditions for Colombia, to be checked yearly from ~1862 until ~1883, would be something like:

	OR = {
			event = 154022 #Border Tensions with Bogotá
			event = 154023 #Negotiations with Mosquera
                                      war = { country = CLM country = ECU }  
                                      war = { country = CLM country = VNZ }  
	}
	NOT = { 
                   is_satellite = CLM
                   alliance = { country = CLM country = ECU } 
                   alliance = { country = CLM country = VNZ }
            }

The wars are there for obvious reasons (if there's already a war, then a more aggressive AI makes sense), and the events because (independent of the wars) those were moments when the tension between ECU and CLM (haven't made any CLM-VNZ tension events yet) was high.

 

[pimparel]

I'd think that the conditions for Colombia, to be checked yearly from ~1862 until ~1883, would be something like:

	OR = {
			event = 154022 #Border Tensions with Bogotá
			event = 154023 #Negotiations with Mosquera
                                      war = { country = CLM country = ECU }  
                                      war = { country = CLM country = VNZ }  
	}
	NOT = { 
                   is_satellite = CLM
                   alliance = { country = CLM country = ECU } 
                   alliance = { country = CLM country = VNZ }
            }

The wars are there for obvious reasons (if there's already a war, then a more aggressive AI makes sense), and the events because (independent of the wars) those were moments when the tension between ECU and CLM (haven't made any CLM-VNZ tension events yet) was high.[/QUOTE]

Nice call.

 

[unmerged(13520)]

Hopefully that works...

Also, a little comment....something that I've noticed a bit in my tests, which might have changed if you've modified something in the ECU AI....

It seems that ECU, when at war with PEU, only tries to defend its 3 "modern" provinces and doesn't even try to fight PEU if it invades the 3 "amazonian" provinces (all the ECU troops stand still). Perhaps ECU should at least give a small bit of extra priority to defending 2097 Santander, for example?

 

[pimparel]

Hopefully that works...

Also, a little comment....something that I've noticed a bit in my tests, which might have changed if you've modified something in the ECU AI....

It seems that ECU, when at war with PEU, only tries to defend its 3 "modern" provinces and doesn't even try to fight PEU if it invades the 3 "amazonian" provinces (all the ECU troops stand still). Perhaps ECU should at least give a small bit of extra priority to defending 2097 Santander, for example?

This change can be made, but the reasoning behind my thinking: As a weaker nation, ECU would entrech themselves in the Mountains and Woods (actually surviving more than before, when they was gulped), and fight their way back.

I actually saw the winning one province from PEU, but I can rework this.

 

[Generalisimo]

Currently, the ARG and the CLM AI aren't able to achieve those objectives, so I am planning to add an event with a low random chance (like annual 5%), to load a more Aggressive AI to those countries.

Now the conditions would be? To ARG, the 'La Plata' was more something 'Rosas'-like, so I plan to check if ARG is PRES_DICT and if is prior 1860.

And Colombia, would be something similar?

make the event check that until Rosas is removed from power...

 

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Progress report

-The "War" (more like a crisis, so there is no real declaration of war...unless the player wants to take that risk) with Spain (1865-1866) is basically done, might need some further tweaks in the future but the "core" is finished. Most of the required events affect SPA, PEU and CHL. ECU and BOL get one event each (since they did, formally, participate, but not really physically).

-The "core" of the 'Gran Colombia' and 'La Plata' unifications is done (as should be evident, upon reading this thread). Again, there may be tweaks done to these events too.

-Bolivia's history has been modelled for the period 1855-1879 with about 10 new events.

-Literacy reductions done (this is a bit old and it's been in the group for some time, but I'll mention it here anyways)

-Several already existing events have been modified.

Things that still remain to be done:

-Script some more new events for other countries, specifically in the northern part of South America (ECU, CLM, VNZ...).

-More tests and tweaks for what's already been scripted.

 

[unmerged(20857)]

Scythe: I just checked out the events at the page 1 of this thread, and I saw that the events I wrote are attributed to you... it's ok but I would like to get some credit, at least write "Scripted by Scythe - Event by General Perón".

I hope you can attend to my request,
General Perón

 

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Actually, in the REAL files themselves that are already in the VIP release versions (have you checked them?) and in some other posts in this thread, that has already been applied from the start (in other words, event by Gen. Peron, scripted by Scythe, etc.).

It is only in the Forum list that the change has not been made (perhaps because mostly the scripters are credited in the list, or just an oversight).

I would never seek to steal credit for such things, I can assure you. That is why I did add such headers to the real events, which are publicly available in VIP 0.2/B.

Still, if it bothers you so much to see this slight error *only* in this thread (and not in the real events)....if a moderator or someone could edit the post to add your name (I am in a bit of bind right now and do not have the best possibility of access...I will certainly edit it as soon as this situation settles downs), then it would be fine with me....

 

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Actually, in the REAL files themselves that are already in the VIP release versions (have you checked them?) and in some other posts in this thread, that has already been applied from the start (in other words, event by Gen. Peron, scripted by Scythe, etc.).

It is only in the Forum list that the change has not been made (perhaps because mostly the scripters are credited in the list, or just an oversight).

I would never seek to steal credit for such things, I can assure you. That is why I did add such headers to the real events, which are publicly available in VIP 0.2/B.

Still, if it bothers you so much to see this slight error *only* in this thread (and not in the real events)....if a moderator or someone could edit the post to add your name (I am in a bit of bind right now and do not have the best possibility of access...I will certainly edit it as soon as this situation settles downs), then it would be fine with me....

I don't have Victoria, so I didn't check the VIP in-game.
It's ok, I didn't say you wanted to "steal credit", I just said that I wanted to see my name in the list of events of this posts.
Don't take it the wrong way, I know how hard are you working on this proyect, and I'm here to help improving it, not to make you waste your time.

General Perón

 

[Pablius]

Hi

I wanted to add some words to de monarchy/republic debate in ARG, and the final organization of the country

actually there were at least three attemps to my knowledge in the early years after revolution (1810), the first was to put a brother of the king of spain as king, thus avoiding war, this was the brazilian solution AFAIK, probably was more complex, anyway ferdinand VII rejected it.

Then was the idea of the Incan heir, of course he was not an indian living in a cave as is commonly believe of every indian ppl.

Then was a proposal for putting a member of the portuguese/brazilian royal family in the throne (Infanta Carlota i think).

None of this happened because the ppl "running" the revolution were mostly republicans, and the constitutional monarchy guys were a minority.

In any case the question was settled by 1836 and there were no more monarchy attemps AFAIK, i might be wrong of course. The Federal Pact of 1831 binding some provinces called for the writing of a constitution after the pacification of the country at the end of civil war, for many diferent reasons, after winning the civil war, Rosas ruled between 1833 and 1852 without a constitution, and in 1853 the current constitution is written after his downfall, ending the institutional organisation of the country under a republican form.

Regarding this, in my opinion there should be an event around 1912 when universal sufrage was actually granted if the player didnt do it first, that year the Saenz Peña law was passed that protected secret and universal vote rights (for men in any case, women had to wait until 1949)

Thanks for all the work, and i hope this wasnt to tedius to read

Pablo
Any inacuracy should be blame to misstyping

 

[unmerged(13520)]

That is very interesting Pablius, I thank you for your input, it certainly provides a few little known details about the situation. In any case, remember that we are basically in the realm of '''what if'' in this particular case, so it is not necessary to be 100% historical (if that were the case, then lots of events would not even have b options, huh?)...

Regarding this, in my opinion there should be an event around 1912 when universal sufrage was actually granted if the player didnt do it first, that year the Saenz Peña law was passed that protected secret and universal vote rights (for men in any case, women had to wait until 1949)

Well, it is not a bad idea at all, but we would need someone to script the event (which would probably be a Flavor event, btw)...I would do it myself but as I have mentioned before, I am not able to do so at the moment. If someone else can do it, then by all means go ahead, it would be a nice addition to the VIP.

 

[Pablius]

Glad i could help a bit, sadly i dont know anything about scripting.

I think it should be accurate to grant vote rights based on wealth after 1853 for ARG, even when wealth was almost totaly asociated to land ownership in the argentinian economy of the period (1853 to around 1912/16). The political system was a representative republic but, in practice, controled by the upper classes.

It took decades for a strong middle class to develop and succed in demanding active participation in the system (the first socialist deputy was elected in 1904), massive inmigration and market changes had lots to do with it by transforming the social landscape of the country from an "agricultural republic" to a incipient industrial country, wich, sadly, never totaly materialize, so leading to the decline of the country as a potential succes story of the early XX century.

Lucky we have vicky to industrialize in proper time instead of betting on cows and wheat alone

 

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Lucky we have vicky to industrialize in proper time instead of betting on cows and wheat alone

Yeah... vicky is the closest thing we have to the "time machine"...