VIP - Russia, Poland, and the Baltic States

[Ges]

Ok, but what the point to unite Kowno and Vilna data when the situations in these regions were so much different (there never was any drastic Slavanization processes in Kaunas region)? They should be done separate naturally as soon as we have reliable data for both of them from 1864 and 1897.

The point to unite Kowno and Vilna is:
1)It's bad idea do to POP files province by province - if you do you'll end easily with wrong/unbalanced data.
2)If we would have good estimate about total population number of Kowno and Vilna gubernii 1836, then we could divide them. If we lack total number per gubernii it's hard to handle them separate.
2)Kowno and Vilna are separate but then again the biggest line between Whiterussians and Lithuanians is inside Vilna gubernii.

It is quite understandable with doubled French titles: Petits russiens – Little Russians (Ukrainians), Russes blances – White Russians, Grands russiens – Great Russians, Polonais et Mazoviens – Poles and Masovians, Lithuanjens – Lithuanians, Samogites – Samogitians, Lettens – Latvians; cultes – confessions, Catholiques Orthodoxes Grecs et vieux croyants (Greek-Catholics and Orthodoxes), Catholiques Romains (Roman Catholics), Protestants ; Provinces – governorships (gubernias) and their names (Mohilew, Vitebsk, Minsk, Kiew, Podolie, Volhynie, Grodno, Vilna, Kovno). Unfortunately, the Jews and Germans were not taken as objects at this demographic analysis.

French titles were understandable to me. What I'm more interested is the headers of the page. Does it say something about questions asked? The headers is basically evenly important with data in order to understand what the stats is all about. So could you please translate all the header rows to me?

Too bad that jews and germans were left out.

 

[Herr Doctor]

The point to unite Kowno and Vilna is:
1)It's bad idea do to POP files province by province - if you do you'll end easily with wrong/unbalanced data.
2)If we would have good estimate about total population number of Kowno and Vilna gubernii 1836, then we could divide them. If we lack total number per gubernii it's hard to handle them separate.
2)Kowno and Vilna are separate but then again the biggest line between Whiterussians and Lithuanians is inside Vilna gubernii.

I really don’t get the point. In this case we get some odd 25 % Belarusians in Kowno and odd 60 % Lithuanians in Vilna, which the worst thing we can do in this case. There never was so many Belarusians in Kowno region as much as there never was so many Lithuanians in Vilna region during this period. Same with the “division” line between both ethnoses in Vilna governorship: Victoria provinces here are very close to reality and I do not see any reason why we cannot simulate real situation in Kowno and Vilna regions.

French titles were understandable to me. What I'm more interested is the headers of the page. Does it say something about questions asked? The headers is basically evenly important with data in order to understand what the stats is all about. So could you please translate all the header rows to me?

I already translated it here mostly: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5537910&postcount=23
The Statistic Table of Northwestern country according to the researches of the Imperial Ministry of the Domestic Affairs under the conduct and close guidance of D.S.S. Batyushkov, by the General Stuff Lieutenant Colonel Rittiech, St. Petersburg 1864.

 

[Ges]

I really don’t get the point. In this case we get some odd 25 % Belarusians in Kowno and odd 60 % Lithuanians in Vilna, which the worst thing we can do in this case. There never was so many Belarusians in Kowno region as much as there never was so many Lithuanians in Vilna region during this period. Same with the “division” line between both ethnoses in Vilna governorship: Victoria provinces here are very close to reality and I do not see any reason why we cannot simulate real situation in Kowno and Vilna regions.

Look at what it look likes ingame. - you'll get the point. No belarussians in Kowno gubernii and Vilna (IIRC) is less "lithuanian" than Kowno for example. please bother to _look ingame_.

BTW: do you have good/anykind of estimate of total population in Kowno or Vilna gubernii in 1836?

The Statistic Table of Northwestern country according to the researches of the Imperial Ministry of the Domestic Affairs under the conduct and close guidance of D.S.S. Batyushkov, by the General Stuff Lieutenant Colonel Rittiech, St. Petersburg 1864.

Thanks for that.

 

[Panzerschreck]

So... seams to be a long discussion. Have you maybe some better numbers to create a moscow pop file?

There was also some time ago a russian "team" or whatever creating new popfildes for hole russia. It was quite ok... but the left the germans out completly -.-

Whats now up for .5 is ok but some areas are still "untouched"...

 

[Gaius Marius I]

Hello all.

Noting that there has been alot of POP discussions in this thread, i'd be interested to know what the current overall population is for russia in 1836 in VIP (my 1.03c install isn't working, so i can't install VIP at present), and whether the VIPers believe the current numbers for each vic state in VIP Russia and for Russia as a whole are more or less accurate than in vanilla 1.4/revolutions.

Thanks for any replies.

GM

 

[Generalisimo]

Hello all.

Noting that there has been alot of POP discussions in this thread, i'd be interested to know what the current overall population is for russia in 1836 in VIP (my 1.03c install isn't working, so i can't install VIP at present), and whether the VIPers believe the current numbers for each vic state in VIP Russia and for Russia as a whole are more or less accurate than in vanilla 1.4/revolutions.

Thanks for any replies.

GM

All the population of Russia has been changed recently... so, stay tunned for the new version.

 

[Gaius Marius I]

All the population of Russia has been changed recently... so, stay tunned for the new version.

Having recently put together a POP mod for MP myself, to which i intend to add the canadian files you granted me permission to use, i shall be watching these changes indeed!

 

[OHgamer]

The Serf Question

Something that I've started testing as a way to simulate serfdom in Russia.

Create a new short-range non-national culture called Krepostnoy to represent the Russian serf population. With the end of serfdom events in 1861 the Krepostnoy would be converted to Russian. Thus RUS would only get half production from the Serfs.

And while serfdom did exist in non-Russian areas such as Belarus and Ukraine, there would be little to gain from having the Krepostnoy culture be included in these areas. Rather, Byellorussian will be removed from the starting national cultures of Russia in 1836, and re-added with the end of serfdom events. Ukrainian would remain, as it currently is, a non-state culture.

Again as I said this is only in testing stage for the moment, but so far the results look quite good.

 

[unmerged(46065)]

The Serf Question

Something that I've started testing as a way to simulate serfdom in Russia.

Create a new short-range non-national culture called Krepostnoy to represent the Russian serf population. With the end of serfdom events in 1861 the Krepostnoy would be converted to Russian. Thus RUS would only get half production from the Serfs.

And while serfdom did exist in non-Russian areas such as Belarus and Ukraine, there would be little to gain from having the Krepostnoy culture be included in these areas. Rather, Byellorussian will be removed from the starting national cultures of Russia in 1836, and re-added with the end of serfdom events. Ukrainian would remain, as it currently is, a non-state culture.

Again as I said this is only in testing stage for the moment, but so far the results look quite good.

It sounds good too, would this most likely result in higher National Culture to non-national culture ratio? Just wondering.

 

[OHgamer]

It sounds good too, would this most likely result in higher National Culture to non-national culture ratio? Just wondering.

I don't think that will be a problem since the ratios would remain the same as they are - only a portion of the originally Russian POPs at the start of the campaign will become krepostnoy, and then be converted back to Russian with the end of serfdom. So the ratios should be just about the same before & after

 

[Kenshin]

What happens to conquered territories. Will they change to Russia as well or stay krepostnoy?
Nice idea!

 

[OHgamer]

What happens to conquered territories. Will they change to Russia as well or stay krepostnoy?
Nice idea!

Do you mean if another nation conquers Russian territories?

if you are say PRU having them be russian or krepostnoy would be little difference since both would be minority cultures in your lands.

though events to convert krepostnoy to Russian if Russian lands come under non-Russian rule could be developed fairly easily.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Could you please use a proper English form for “Byelarussian” culture? Belarusian?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=be&q=belarusian

 

[ohms_law]

The Poles

Hey folks. I was playing a game yesterday as Russia, and was doing pretty darn good with them. I played through the 1860 before my game CTD'ed... but that's a different story. (V:R with VIP 0.1)

What I wanted to talk about was the Polish situation. The events fired as appropriate, but the thing is that it was way to easy to manage. Now granted, I'm no historical expert on Eastern Europe but I do know that the poles had won independence... not in my world though. I received all of the events for handling the polish resistance, their militancy did increase, I had some slight revolt risk... but no revolutionaries! Now, keep in mind that I'm fairly good at keeping my folks happy. However, something seems unfinished about this event chain.

Some Ideas:
How about some increases in militancy for all poles leading up to the main events? having polish militancy and consciousness constantly increasing would be a great help to their desire for independence, and I think it would provide a good feel for the issue.

What about adding some actual revolutionaries manually? There's the event which describes the Poles taking up arms, and a battle against 100,000 Russian's. That seems like a good event to add some revolutionaries.

Prussia and Austria. The event fired which provided me with military access, but there's no reason for it in the current VIP. Nothing is ever going on in Austria or Prussia.

 

[Stormbringer]

Keep in mind that Poland only won independance following WWI when the Russian Empire was dismantled. Even historically Russia managed to cope with Polish nationalism, so it makes sense that it is not that hard to do for an experienced player.

 

[ohms_law]

Actually yea, I just read up about the polish situation at the time on Wikipedia. Still, there should probably be a bit more "teeth" put into the uprising. As it is, I pretty much just ignored it the way that it's currently set up. There's really very little to do or decide on with the current event chain, which makes the whole chain somewhat pointless. What's worse, there's really no reason to be mean to the Poles.

Seeing as how this game (in my view) is about the ability to alter history somewhat, it should be possible to manage the situation both better and worse then the manner in which it was handled historically as well. I'd think that not crushing the uprising should encourage it to gain momentum rather than it simply dying out (which is how I managed it, really). On the other hand, it should also be possible (but difficult and with consequences) to somehow allow the Poles to become full citizens of Russia (add Polish nationality ot Russia). I also won the Crimea War, which prevented my empire from widening socially. The Polish uprisings could be an alternative beginning to the modernization of Russian society.

 

[OHgamer]

Actually yea, I just read up about the polish situation at the time on Wikipedia. Still, there should probably be a bit more "teeth" put into the uprising. As it is, I pretty much just ignored it the way that it's currently set up. There's really very little to do or decide on with the current event chain, which makes the whole chain somewhat pointless. What's worse, there's really no reason to be mean to the Poles.

Seeing as how this game (in my view) is about the ability to alter history somewhat, it should be possible to manage the situation both better and worse then the manner in which it was handled historically as well. I'd think that not crushing the uprising should encourage it to gain momentum rather than it simply dying out (which is how I managed it, really). On the other hand, it should also be possible (but difficult and with consequences) to somehow allow the Poles to become full citizens of Russia (add Polish nationality ot Russia). I also won the Crimea War, which prevented my empire from widening socially. The Polish uprisings could be an alternative beginning to the modernization of Russian society.

If we can get volunteers to revise the events further, then the mod could expand on what has already be scripted for a fuller event chain.

 

[ohms_law]

Well, I signed up to the CORE/VIP forums yesterday. It's been a year since I've played Vicky/VIP, so I need a bit of time to get back into the swing of things... however, I've always been fairly decent with events and what not. I'm not going to make any promises or anything, but I'm betting that I can make some contribution.


P.S.: Thanks for taking care of moving the thread. I had forgotten about all of the country specific threads here.

 

[Alyosha]

I had some thoughts on the Serfdom question in a Russia that wins the Crimean War.

While I totally agree that the traditional abolition of serfdom should be linked to a loss in the Crimean War, I'd like to see ahistoricals option for the Russia that survives. Possibly some sort of pressure from a capitalist class (they need workers for their factories) or even a budding socialist movement (rising militancy for the krespostnoy culture). One has to figure that if Russia survives it will be because of a better military and infrastructure, which would either be a product of or catalyst to higher literacy. If you look at the cultural setup, probably 28% or more of Russia's population in the game is Russian, with krepostnoy at around 15-20% and other cultures making up the remainder. So, theoretically, if Russia has literacy above 35% some of those other cultures are learning to read and write as well (I know this is loose logic).

The two paths I see could cause a greater reform of the government as well - just because the monarchy survived the war doesn't mean it should have it easy for the next 70+ years.

Any thoughts?

 

[OHgamer]

I had some thoughts on the Serfdom question in a Russia that wins the Crimean War.

While I totally agree that the traditional abolition of serfdom should be linked to a loss in the Crimean War, I'd like to see ahistoricals option for the Russia that survives. Possibly some sort of pressure from a capitalist class (they need workers for their factories) or even a budding socialist movement (rising militancy for the krespostnoy culture). One has to figure that if Russia survives it will be because of a better military and infrastructure, which would either be a product of or catalyst to higher literacy. If you look at the cultural setup, probably 28% or more of Russia's population in the game is Russian, with krepostnoy at around 15-20% and other cultures making up the remainder. So, theoretically, if Russia has literacy above 35% some of those other cultures are learning to read and write as well (I know this is loose logic).

The two paths I see could cause a greater reform of the government as well - just because the monarchy survived the war doesn't mean it should have it easy for the next 70+ years.

Any thoughts?

There will be an event for abolition of serfdom in Hotfix 2 if Rus wins the Crimean War or does not fight the war so that RUS does have the opportunity to deal with the issue.

Beyond that, would need some volunteers to start scripting some ideas.