VIP - POPs, POP Growth and Demographic Issues

[Dunois]

For gamebalance purpose, the answer is a big NO.
"Why", you may ask?
Because "foreign" cultures have more militancy... and AI nations have a difficult task in protecting far away pieces of land... so, instead of having the Danish Army fighting the Prussian Army, we will have it fighting the rebels in Iceland... something that doesn't have much sense.

I also think about it, but we can just simply add the icelandic culture along with the danish one for the Danemark, but after a Scandinavian Union with 5 nationals cultures disturb me a bit i have to admit it.

 

[Yakman]

I have a World Almanac from 1912. Could this solve some of the 1914 POP issues?

 

[OHgamer]

I have a World Almanac from 1912. Could this solve some of the 1914 POP issues?

To a point, especially if it has ethnic breakdowns/religious breakdowns that is helpful. The biggest problem is that most almanacs are likely not to have population by province/region for all but a few of the GPs so while we might know the total population and even the ethnic/religious makeup, we don't know the geographic distribution except maybe in a rough way based on city populations. That is the hardest part of all in doing population reworks - the distribution by provinces. Of course if your almanac has info on say for example what the Alevi Kurdish population of Diyarbakir was in 1911, then you've got a potential treasure trove of info in your hands.

 

[Yakman]

I don't think it has statistics on alevi kurds....

 

[Iron Marshal]

POP mistakes?

Hi,

I've been poking around the VIP POP files and I think I might've found some errors. Putting the POP files into a spreadsheet and then breaking off some PivotTables, I've learned that China has 2995 Aristocrats -- roughly half the total number on the planet. Investigating this, I've learned that one province (Jinan -- number 1554) has 494 Beifaren Mayahana aristocrats, with 35 officers and 16 farmers. This seems backward to me. Are the numbers for farmers and aristocrats reversed?

Also, to whom should I report any more bugs or suspected mistakes I find?

 

[OHgamer]

Hi,

I've been poking around the VIP POP files and I think I might've found some errors. Putting the POP files into a spreadsheet and then breaking off some PivotTables, I've learned that China has 2995 Aristocrats -- roughly half the total number on the planet. Investigating this, I've learned that one province (Jinan -- number 1554) has 494 Beifaren Mayahana aristocrats, with 35 officers and 16 farmers. This seems backward to me. Are the numbers for farmers and aristocrats reversed?

Also, to whom should I report any more bugs or suspected mistakes I find?

AFAIK the China POP files are pretty much what they were in Vanilla as far as breakdown by class, and no one really has looked closely at them. Those numbers do sound odd, but unless we find someone who has good data to help correct them they will likely remain "as is". JRaup is working on a China event mod, but not sure if he was planning to do anything with POPs.

 

[tyrel68]

Hi,

I've been poking around the VIP POP files and I think I might've found some errors. Putting the POP files into a spreadsheet and then breaking off some PivotTables, I've learned that China has 2995 Aristocrats -- roughly half the total number on the planet. Investigating this, I've learned that one province (Jinan -- number 1554) has 494 Beifaren Mayahana aristocrats, with 35 officers and 16 farmers. This seems backward to me. Are the numbers for farmers and aristocrats reversed?

Also, to whom should I report any more bugs or suspected mistakes I find?

Well, just keep posting them in this forum and you will get the bugs to the people who can fix them

 

[unmerged(21338)]

China did always have a ridiculous amount of bureaucrats in their nation, still do in fact. Their government was run through favors & "prestige" of the different court factions in the provinces for years. You are probably right that it is still to many, but they should still have ridiculous numbers. Also, don't aristocrats help RGOs? If so it might have been done to give better production to an uncivilized nation, not sure if it matters how many are in the provinces.

 

[JRaup]

Hi,

I've been poking around the VIP POP files and I think I might've found some errors. Putting the POP files into a spreadsheet and then breaking off some PivotTables, I've learned that China has 2995 Aristocrats -- roughly half the total number on the planet. Investigating this, I've learned that one province (Jinan -- number 1554) has 494 Beifaren Mayahana aristocrats, with 35 officers and 16 farmers. This seems backward to me. Are the numbers for farmers and aristocrats reversed?

Also, to whom should I report any more bugs or suspected mistakes I find?

I haven't gone through all of the China POPs in detail as yet. There are a number of things that need to be tweaked in there, such as reducing the number of soldier and offcier POPs. Taking a look at the file in question, it's actually OK as is in terms of aristocrats. There are only 2 POPs that are aristocrats, one Mahayana and one Sunni, which is just about right. The officers are too high though, and needs to be reduced. Also, I don't think you're looking at all the POPs for 1554, as I have A Sunni farmer POP of 46, and a Biefaren farmer POP of 602 in Jinan If you're looking at the vanilla files, they're broken up into 2-3 files each for most of China, so looking at just the single file will not show everything that's in that province.

 

[Iron Marshal]

There's a total of 14 POPs in Jinan, with a total of 1479 population. Of these 1479 people, 498 are aristocrats -- 33.7% of the total population. This is the highest such ratio on the planet, so far as I am aware. It's not the number of aristocrat POPs that looks strange, it's the size of those POPs.

FYI, there are 5 provinces in China with more than 20% aristocrats -- Jinan is highest, but there's also Mukden, Hangzhou, Zhengzhou, and Beijing.

 

[JRaup]

There's a total of 14 POPs in Jinan, with a total of 1479 population. Of these 1479 people, 498 are aristocrats -- 33.7% of the total population. This is the highest such ratio on the planet, so far as I am aware. It's not the number of aristocrat POPs that looks strange, it's the size of those POPs.

FYI, there are 5 provinces in China with more than 20% aristocrats -- Jinan is highest, but there's also Mukden, Hangzhou, Zhengzhou, and Beijing.

Ayup, that sounds about right. These were the big provinces for the aristocracy to reside in. There was a lot of absebtee land lords in China right up until 1949, as they tended to congregate in the power centers. So, in those provinces, the ratio of aristocrats to other POPs will be out of order on the surface. The other thing to keep in mind is that instead of the bureaucrats being clerks, they're aristocrats in China, for game play reasons. And really, in game terms, it's not the size of the POP that counts here, but the number of POPs themselves. I may when I review the China POPs convert a few of the aristocrats to Clergy however.

 

[JRaup]

One other thing here. The aristocrats are also grouped together into one province for the entire state. So, like in the Jinan case, that 490+ POP covers all the aristocrats in the state. To be truly historically accurate, that one POP would be broken up into 4-5 POPs of varying sizes. However, that has an adverse effect on game balance, in that it would give China an unfair advantage due to the aristocrat bonuses, which are based on number of POPs.

 

[Iron Marshal]

Alrighty then -- not a mistake, after all.

Sorry to bug ya.

 

[JRaup]

Alrighty then -- not a mistake, after all.

Sorry to bug ya.

No problem. A lot of people don't realize that some of the POP oddities have an in game reason for being grouped like they are. OFC there are some exceptions, but they are few and far between. And it never hurts to ask questions like this, because some one else down the road will have the same question, and the answer's here already.

 

[Iron Marshal]

Oh, almost forgot: Anybody want the spreadsheets with the PivotTables?

 

[Iron Marshal]

I've now found 52 POPs of size zero. Are these mistakes? Should they be deleted or commented out of the VIP POP files? Should they be size 1?

 

[tyrel68]

I've now found 52 POPs of size zero. Are these mistakes? Should they be deleted or commented out of the VIP POP files? Should they be size 1?

Those are pops that a randomly between 0-999 size

 

[Iron Marshal]

Those are pops that a randomly between 0-999 size

Okay, thanks. So those random numbers are generated anew with every new game?

Another oddity: According to the VIP POP files, the total world POPulation is 257,831. China's POPulation is 101,719. That's 39.5% of the world. By contrast, the next largest country is British India with 9.5% of world POPulation. I know China's big, and it's supposed to be big, but is it supposed to be *that* big? Over 4 times the size of India?

 

[tyrel68]

Okay, thanks. So those random numbers are generated anew with every new game?

Another oddity: According to the VIP POP files, the total world POPulation is 257,831. China's POPulation is 101,719. That's 39.5% of the world. By contrast, the next largest country is British India with 9.5% of world POPulation. I know China's big, and it's supposed to be big, but is it supposed to be *that* big? Over 4 times the size of India?

I never thought to check but I assume so.

 

[JRaup]

Okay, thanks. So those random numbers are generated anew with every new game?

Another oddity: According to the VIP POP files, the total world POPulation is 257,831. China's POPulation is 101,719. That's 39.5% of the world. By contrast, the next largest country is British India with 9.5% of world POPulation. I know China's big, and it's supposed to be big, but is it supposed to be *that* big? Over 4 times the size of India?

That may be a bit high. China in this time frame went form somewhere around 1/3 the worlds population, to about 43% of the population. India didn;t have a real big population boom until 1900 or so. So, the strating level is high, but I think it works out over the course of the game, between Wars and emmigration.