VIP - POPs, POP Growth and Demographic Issues

[Brownbeard]

the only place that could possibly have a few muslims at that point might have been dubrovnik, but their numbers might have been in dozens. a few merchants perhaps and thats it.

 

[Generalisimo]

Proposed new POPs for Croatia..

POPs do not look blend as they used to, there are more clerks, less farmers and ethnic map is a bit closer to what it really was at the time. At the same time I did not want to change POPs too much in order to preserve game balance.
Mitrovica and Kotor are included because the data available included the regions of Srem and Boka, which are not part of Croatia these days. At the same time Istria is not included.

Changes:
Total pop has gone up by 10% to 326000 (1.3mil), which is probably still not enough.
Croats 66%
Serbs 24%
South_Germans 4%
Hungarians 3%
North_Italians >1/%
Czechs 1/%


Here we go...

Pozega
912;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;16

Osijek
913;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;16
913;Croat;Catholic;clergymen;;;;5
913;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;6
913;South_German;Catholic;farmers;;;;5
913;Hungarian;Catholic;farmers;;;;5

Mitrovica
929;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;8
929;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;8
929;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;10
929;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;10
929;South_German;Catholic;farmers;;;;6

Sisak
730;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;10
730;croat;catholic;Soldiers;;;;4
730;serb;orthodox;soldiers;;;;4
730;serb;orthodox;farmers;;;;5

Zagreb
746;croat;catholic;clergymen;;;;5
746;croat;catholic;aristocrats;;;;5
746;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;12
746;croat;catholic;soldiers;;;;8
746;Hungarian;catholic;aristocrats;;;;5
746;South_German;Catholic;clerks;;;;5
746;croat;Catholic;clerks;;;;5

Ogulin
748;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;13

Karlovar
749;croat;catholic;Soldiers;;;;5
749;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;8
749;serb;catholic;Soldiers;;;;5
749;serb;catholic;farmers;;;;5

Senj
750;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;10
750;serb;orthodox;farmers;;;;9

Bjelovar
906;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;16
906;serb;orthodox;soldiers;;;;4
906;czech;catholic;farmers;;;;4

Zadar
751;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;15
751;north_italian;catholic;aristocrats;;;;5
751;serb;orthodox;farmers;;;;5

Split
907;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;21
907;croat;catholic;clergymen;;;;5

Dubrovnik
934;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;10

Kotor
935;croat;catholic;farmers;;;;4
935;serb;orthodox;farmers;;;;8

Sources:
http://www.mti.hu
http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/srbi-balkan/jilic-croatia.html
http://www.dalmazia.it/dalmazia/scompa/statien.htm
http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/hungarop.htm
http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/tarsad/tortenel/austria/html/data/chap30.htm
http://pub37.ezboard.com/bistorijabalkana

Regards,

Implemented this in v0.4

 

[Tunch Khan]

Today’s Bosniak population in Croatia is a result of recent migrations, mostly economic after WWII (I used to live in one of such places) and some have arrived during last war in Bosnia. In all my sources I could not find any trace of Muslims in Croatia at the time (19 century).

Before Croatia was taken over by AU there were some Muslims in Slavonia and especially in Lika (Senj in Victoria) but were all expelled after the war. The only place they remained is in area called Kordun (Karlovac) in border area with Bosnia - but we are talking about 2-3 villages that did not number more than few hundred people.

If you can produce any evidence of Muslim (not even Bosniak) or any other ethnic group in Croatia I will be more than glad to include those...

Regards,

Fair enough. Your arguments (and the ones above) are sound and convincing and apparently the result of a better research. Mine was just an assumption basing from the fact that muslim minorities are ignored allthrough Balkans, resulting in muslim free Greece, Bulgaria etc. and even in Macedonia and Kosova vanilla Vicky was extremely harsh. VIP does a much better job in this respect and i wish everyone would be as careful as you are while helping VIP.

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Then we should wait for a new Bosnian/Bosniak culture to be added. Until then, anything else is just meaningless.

Turk would work, if we leave out the part to give it as state culture to AH. It will nicely represent the period to the occupation of AH.

 

[OHgamer]

New Bosniak culture...

Having gone through and reworked the India population files I found there were a couple of unused culture tags in the Indian Subcontinent that duplicated cultures already extant. So for Bosniaks use the Hindi culture tag.

In Victoria\config\world_names.csv change this line :

CULTURE_HINDI;Hindi;;;;;;;;;;x

to

CULTURE_HINDI;Bosniak;;;;;;;;;;x

note you will have to use Hindi for the culture in your files, but once uploaded they will appear on the screen as Bosniak.

So transforming the file TUR_bosnia in VIP Pops to this listing :

Province;Nationality;Religion;Workforce;Ideology;Consciousness;Militancy;Size
729;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;18
729;Hindi;Sunni;soldiers;;;;7
908;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;19
908;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;6
908;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;6
909;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;11
909;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;18
910;Serb;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;5
910;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;clergymen;;;;5
910;Hindi;Sunni;soldiers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;aristocrats;;;;9
910;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;4
911;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;6
911;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;20
911;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
932;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;17
932;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
932;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;9
933;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;6
933;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;7
933;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;5
933;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;13

Will create this onscreen as the pop breakdown for Bosnia :

http://24.123.68.46/sound/BosniaPop.JPG

And if this is all that is being modded, no changes in numbers planned, I'll go ahead and send it to Generalisimo for inclusion in 0.4. Otherwise post the new numbers here.

If you want the Ottoman Empire to have Bosniak as one of the state cultures, then culture = hindi would need to be added to the Ottoman .inc file.

 

[Dunois]

I have just finish my modifications in Central Europe here they are :

Germans in the Baltic Countries :

Province Nationality Religion Workforce Ideology Consciousness Militancy Size
387 North_German Protestant officers 1
387 North_German Protestant aristocrats 1
387 North_German Protestant farmers 2
388 North_German Protestant farmers 1
389 North_German Protestant farmers 1
390 North_German Protestant aristocrats 3
390 North_German Protestant farmers 6
390 North_German Protestant clergymen 1
390 North_German Protestant capitalists 1
390 North_German Protestant craftsmen 6
390 North_German Protestant officers 1
390 North_German Protestant clerks 2
399 North_German Protestant farmers 1
400 North_German Protestant farmers 1
401 North_German Protestant farmers 1
402 North_German Protestant farmers 1
403 North_German Protestant farmers 1
404 North_German Protestant officers 1
404 North_German Protestant aristocrats 1
404 North_German Protestant farmers 3
404 North_German Protestant craftsmen 1
405 North_German Protestant farmers 1
425 North_German Protestant farmers 1
441 North_German Protestant farmers 1

Germans in Poland :

Province Nationality Religion Workforce Ideology Consciousness Militancy Size
412 North_German Protestant farmers 3
412 North_German Protestant craftsmen 2
412 North_German Protestant clerks 2
412 North_German Protestant aristocrats 1
413 North_German Protestant farmers 4
413 North_German Protestant craftsmen 2
413 North_German Protestant clerks 2
415 North_German Protestant craftsmen 1
415 North_German Protestant farmers 3
416 North_German Protestant craftsmen 1
416 North_German Protestant farmers 2
417 North_German Protestant farmers 2
417 North_German Protestant craftsmen 1
945 South_German Catholic farmers 2
945 South_German Protestant farmers 3
945 South_German Protestant craftsmen 1


Germans in Volynia :

Province Nationality Religion Workforce Ideology Consciousness Militancy Size
365 South_German Catholic farmers 2
988 South_German Catholic farmers 1
989 South_German Catholic farmers 1
990 South_German Catholic farmers 3
990 South_German Catholic craftsmen 2


If you have questions comments or suggestion put it here .

I put the sources as Generalissimo ask them.
Sources :

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/#
http://www.quid.fr (i mostly use that)

 

[Brownbeard]

Turk would work, if we leave out the part to give it as state culture to AH. It will nicely represent the period to the occupation of AH.

come on, hindi is better, even more with the fact that 'indira' is a bosniak muslim name.

 

[unmerged(21847)]

Having gone through and reworked the India population files I found there were a couple of unused culture tags in the Indian Subcontinent that duplicated cultures already extant. So for Bosniaks use the Hindi culture tag.

In Victoria\config\world_names.csv change this line :

CULTURE_HINDI;Hindi;;;;;;;;;;x

to

CULTURE_HINDI;Bosniak;;;;;;;;;;x

note you will have to use Hindi for the culture in your files, but once uploaded they will appear on the screen as Bosniak.

So transforming the file TUR_bosnia in VIP Pops to this listing :

Province;Nationality;Religion;Workforce;Ideology;Consciousness;Militancy;Size
729;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;18
729;Hindi;Sunni;soldiers;;;;7
908;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;19
908;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;6
908;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;6
909;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;11
909;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;18
910;Serb;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;5
910;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;clergymen;;;;5
910;Hindi;Sunni;soldiers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;aristocrats;;;;9
910;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;4
911;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;6
911;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;20
911;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
932;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;17
932;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
932;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;9
933;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;6
933;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;7
933;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;5
933;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;13

Will create this onscreen as the pop breakdown for Bosnia :

http://24.123.68.46/sound/BosniaPop.JPG

And if this is all that is being modded, no changes in numbers planned, I'll go ahead and send it to Generalisimo for inclusion in 0.4. Otherwise post the new numbers here.

If you want the Ottoman Empire to have Bosniak as one of the state cultures, then culture = hindi would need to be added to the Ottoman .inc file.

I have done some work on this. I will post my 'research' in forum as soon as I find a bit of time...

How long to I have before 0.4 comes out?

Regards,

 

[OHgamer]

I have done some work on this. I will post my 'research' in forum as soon as I find a bit of time...

How long to I have before 0.4 comes out?

Regards,

Oh it will be a while before 0.4. Need to see what Paradox says about another patch in the near future before we can set a date. It wll likely be around the end of the year, with a small patch for VIP before that to fix some smaller issues with the current 0.3B

 

[unmerged(21847)]

Bosina POPs

Proposed changes to Bosnia pops...

Size-wise the pop is still the same apart from couple of thousands Jews in Sarajevo (just a bit too much...). I have read somewhere recently that Jews in Sarajevo, being refugees from Spain speak Spanish. Can anyone confirm this? If that is not the case than we should probably make them 'Hindi'...
Novi Pazar had way to much population in comparison to other regions of Bosnia so that got redistributed a bit to other parts.

Ethnic make up is following:
Serbs 43%
Bosniak 39%
Croat 18%
Jews <1%

Here we go::

Bihac
729;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;9
729;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;9
729;Hindi;Sunni;soldiers;;;;7
729;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;3
729;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5

Banjluka
908;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;19
908;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;6
908;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;6
908;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;7

Livno
909;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;15
909;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;15
909;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;4

Sarajevo
910;Serb;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;5
910;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;clergymen;;;;5
910;Hindi;Sunni;soldiers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;8
910;Hindi;Sunni;aristocrats;;;;9
910;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;4
910;Sefardic;Jewish;clerks;;;;2

Tuzla
911;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;15
911;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;8
911;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;6
911;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5

Foca
932;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;17
932;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
932;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;9

Mostar
933;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;6
933;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;7
933;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;5
933;Croat;Catholic;farmers;;;;10
933;Croat;Catholic;clergymen;;;;3

Novi Pazar
940;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;10
940;Serb;Orthodox;farmers;;;;20
940;Hindi;Sunni;farmers;;;;7
940;Hindi;Sunni;soldiers;;;;5

Any comments are more then welcome

Regards,

 

[unmerged(8581)]

Proposed changes to Bosnia pops...

Size-wise the pop is still the same apart from couple of thousands Jews in Sarajevo (just a bit too much...). I have read somewhere recently that Jews in Sarajevo, being refugees from Spain speak Spanish. Can anyone confirm this? If that is not the case than we should probably make them 'Hindi'...
Novi Pazar had way to much population in comparison to other regions of Bosnia so that got redistributed a bit to other parts.

Regards,

Yes, about the Jews it's true, it was actually called Sefardic, the language, a strange mixture of Hebrew, Spanish and Slav words

 

[OHgamer]

Proposed changes to Bosnia pops...

Size-wise the pop is still the same apart from couple of thousands Jews in Sarajevo (just a bit too much...). I have read somewhere recently that Jews in Sarajevo, being refugees from Spain speak Spanish. Can anyone confirm this? If that is not the case than we should probably make them 'Hindi'...
Novi Pazar had way to much population in comparison to other regions of Bosnia so that got redistributed a bit to other parts.

Ethnic make up is following:
Serbs 43%
Bosniak 39%
Croat 18%
Jews <1%

Looks good from what I know of Bosnia's history - only change would be to make the Jewish population Sefardic (there is a tag for that). If no one raises any problems I'll take these numbers and submit them for 0.4 VIP.

 

[OHgamer]

Actually one question

Looks good from what I know of Bosnia's history - only change would be to make the Jewish population Sefardic (there is a tag for that). If no one raises any problems I'll take these numbers and submit them for 0.4 VIP.

Shouldn't there be some Catholic clergymen in Bosnia somewhere? Mostar perhaps?

 

[unmerged(21847)]

Shouldn't there be some Catholic clergymen in Bosnia somewhere? Mostar perhaps?

Agree with your comments - Thanks.

Changes edited above in the original message.

Regards,

 

[Generalisimo]

Any comments are more then welcome

Regards,

when you have them finished, post the sources.

 

[Dunois]

Does anyone thinks like me that we shoudl use, the Icelandic culture tag, as Iceland was a quite old colony and changed of owners multiple,s time si think that put danish peoples in Iceland is somewhat exagerated as Icelandic are not at all like Danes, different culture, differents family names (the son and the dottir at the end) and different tongue.

 

[Generalisimo]

Does anyone thinks like me that we shoudl use, the Icelandic culture tag, as Iceland was a quite old colony and changed of owners multiple,s time si think that put danish peoples in Iceland is somewhat exagerated as Icelandic are not at all like Danes, different culture, differents family names (the son and the dottir at the end) and different tongue.

For gamebalance purpose, the answer is a big NO.
"Why", you may ask?
Because "foreign" cultures have more militancy... and AI nations have a difficult task in protecting far away pieces of land... so, instead of having the Danish Army fighting the Prussian Army, we will have it fighting the rebels in Iceland... something that doesn't have much sense.

 

[unmerged(13241)]

If they won't disappear, I would slit and put the Hindi soldiers and aristocrats all over Bosnia, Sarajevo 3, Bihac, Mostar, Banja Luka, Foca 2.

 

[unmerged(21847)]

If they won't disappear, I would slit and put the Hindi soldiers and aristocrats all over Bosnia, Sarajevo 3, Bihac, Mostar, Banja Luka, Foca 2.

I think the way game is created, adding Bosniaks aristocrats all over Bosnia would upset the game balance... Generalisimo should confirm that...

 

[Generalisimo]

I think the way game is created, adding Bosniaks aristocrats all over Bosnia would upset the game balance... Generalisimo should confirm that...

Completelly.