VIP - Ottoman Empire

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hey, I didn't have time right now to read everything, so if this has been mentioned I'm sorry but...

I only know of one English language book on military history to focus exclusively on the Ottomans in World War 1. If there is any info needed from it let me know (just post a reply). it's calle Ordered to Die and it's by Edward J. Erickson. the title is a reference to the quote by Mustafa Kemal at Gallipoli: "I do not expect you to attack, I order you to die. In the time which passes until we die, other troops and commanders can come forward and take our places." April 25, 1915. It's a great book.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Originally posted by stefano2294
hey, I didn't have time right now to read everything, so if this has been mentioned I'm sorry but...

I only know of one English language book on military history to focus exclusively on the Ottomans in World War 1. If there is any info needed from it let me know (just post a reply). it's calle Ordered to Die and it's by Edward J. Erickson. the title is a reference to the quote by Mustafa Kemal at Gallipoli: "I do not expect you to attack, I order you to die. In the time which passes until we die, other troops and commanders can come forward and take our places." April 25, 1915. It's a great book.

That was the spirit that won Gallipoli and War of Turkish Independence.

Originally posted by Gezz Inti
Just yesterday night I dreamt about an Archeopteryx event taking place in 1860 - when the ur-bird was discovered. I'm spending far too much time on this forum The anticipation will drive me mad.

Hehe, why don't you tell us about that event more and are you good on Albanian history?

 

[Gezz Inti]

"Hehe, why don't you tell us about that event more and are you good on Albanian history?"

Fine. The archeopteryx was discovered in 1860 in Solnhofen, Bavaria; just one year after Darwin's book "On the origin of species" was published.
Paleontologists were quite excited and happy, because the fossil seemed to represent the "missing link" between reptiles and birds. Thomas Henry Huxley, enthusiastic evolutionist used the discovery for his arguments in favor of evolution, while creationists argued that Archeopteryx is either a "true bird" (no link to reptiles) or forgery.

Such an event could create a general, slight increase in secularism/pluralism (because of the tension with creationists) and also in reactionary sentiment. Would be nice, wouldn't it

lol, the location Albania is misleading. I last played Albania in EUII. Actually I live in Izmir, Turkey... Sorry for the confusion.

 

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hmm...really useful information here. I'm going to include some of these numbers in my next Victory X mod. Superb work Tunch Khan!

 

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Currently the Ottomans don't have any control over Egypt (which was de facto correct, even if de jure Egypt was an Ottoman province ruled by the hereditary khedives).

Yes thats true. But to me 'satellite' is just to strong of an option. On the otherhand it would limit Egypts diplomacy so maybe you are right.

I'd suggest a series of events to reflect the Urabi Revolt in Egypt in 1881 that leads to UK intervention, perhaps a short war and once certain provinces fall (Cairo and Alexandria) make Egypt a UK satellite, with the territory around the canal perhaps going directly to the UK

I belive there is an events about this, but I havnet realy looked at them. Just noticed them once in 1880 scenario

. Satellite status is, I think, a good way to depict protectorates like what Egypt became in 1881.

yep

 

[Alexander Seil]

Which brings up my old point- Egypt should be civilized...

 

[Tunch Khan]

Civilized or not the London Treaty event should make her an Ottoman ally and satellite until 1881 when it becomes British satellite and loses the alliance with Ottomans.

 

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I dont know about the allied part.
The london treaty should also have the 'disarm' effect since Muhamed Ali was limited to what ? 20,000 troops ?

 

[Alexander Seil]

Disarmament is not an event command, to my knowledge. You could make the event slash their army and navy in absolute terms however, say, by 20 divisions.

 

[OHgamer]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
Which brings up my old point- Egypt should be civilized...

Agreed - Muhammad Ali expended quite a lot of resources in building facilities to keep army supplies, including development of textile factories. Egypt was as "civilized" as the Ottoman Empire in this era, perhaps even more so in some areas using the Victoria definition.

 

[Mozart41st]

I once read a good post by Peter Ebbeson explaining why Egypt needs to be uncivilized. Essentially it was to allow a resurgent Ottoman Empire to annex her in one war, and that uncivilized represents the European view of things more than anything else. Thus, Egypt was not treated as "part of the club" in the same way that the Ottomans were. Someone made the clever comment that white people had to be afraid of you at some point to be considered civilized (Turks in the middle ages, Japan after 1905).

 

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Egypt

Hi all,

I do not like the idea of Egypt automatically becoming a British satelite in 1881.

The British take over of Egypt was one of the most convoluted events in history. The British by the 19th century were against conquering nations that had any form of real government... the only colonies they took were against essentially tribal opponents.

Britain for the most part did not want to become involved in Egypt as they did not want the responsibility and they felt that taking over would weaken the Ottomans situation at the straights. But, at the time France was still recovering from 1870 and was unwilling to become involved in anything risky, Germany was not interested in the Mediterainian, the other great powers would have never accepted Russia in Egypt and Italy/Austria were too weak or disinterested. So, more or less by default, Egypt fell into Britains hands.

I feel that there should be a chain of events with several of the great powers getting to choose what they would like to see in Egypt. The choice should probably be a default negative for every country except Britain.

Mike

 

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wait...

Additional major event suggestions:
- 1897 Cretan Independence (annexed by Greece in 1908, should be a Greek and Cretan event)

in 1898 crete was a semi-autonomous state under ottoman suzerainty until 1908, when it then became independent; it wasn't incorporated into greece until 1913

steph

 

[Tunch Khan]

in 1898 crete was a semi-autonomous state under ottoman suzerainty until 1908, when it then became independent; it wasn't incorporated into greece until 1913

steph

You are correct, but Ottomans had no major authority left in Crete by 1897. Even the governor was a Greek-Orthodox. So with an event or two, depending on Ottoman's strenght at the given time, we can make some options available, as granting full independence or having them as a satellite nation. In either case i believe it's more realistic to give them some form of independence. Maybe between 1897/8 and 1908 independent Crete as Ottoman satellite, and after 1908, full independence until another event that 'may' unite them with Greece.

 

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You are correct, but Ottomans had no major authority left in Crete by 1897. Even the governor was a Greek-Orthodox. So with an event or two, depending on Ottoman's strenght at the given time, we can make some options available, as granting full independence or having them as a satellite nation. In either case i believe it's more realistic to give them some form of independence. Maybe between 1897/8 and 1908 independent Crete as Ottoman satellite, and after 1908, full independence until another event that 'may' unite them with Greece.

As I believe was mentioned the Ctretan independence was just a transitory state of affairs coming from Greece losing in 1897. Essentially union comes as fast as Greece can defy Ottoman reaction. Which can certainly be modelled.

 

[Tunch Khan]

As I believe was mentioned the Ctretan independence was just a transitory state of affairs coming from Greece losing in 1897. Essentially union comes as fast as Greece can defy Ottoman reaction. Which can certainly be modelled.

What's your suggestion for this model then?

 

[Tunch Khan]

Updated Konstantiniyye Additional POP suggestions

970;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
971;Armenian;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;4
971;Armenian;Orthodox;clerks;;;;6
971;Armenian;Orthodox;craftsmen;;;;8
971;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;18
994;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;3
995;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;2

970;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;18
971;Greek;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;14
971;Greek;Orthodox;capitalists;;;;16
971;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;26
994;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;16
995;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;14

971;Turkish;Jewish;clergymen;;;;4
971;Turkish;Jewish;capitalists;;;;18
971;Turkish;Jewish;clerks;;;;7
971;Turkish;Jewish;craftsmen;;;;7

971;North_Italian;Catholic;clergymen;;;;2
971;North_Italian;Catholic;capitalists;;;;8

Updated Rest of Anatolia Additional POP suggestions

996;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;8

996;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;8
998;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;3
1354;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1

996;Turkish;Jewish;capitalists;;;;1

1360;Armenian;Orthodox;capitalists;;;;2
1360;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;3

997;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
1351;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;2
1352;Greek;Orthodox;craftsmen;;;;2
1352;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
1359;Greek;Orthodox;craftsmen;;;;2
1359;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
1360;Greek;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;10
1360;Greek;Orthodox;capitalists;;;;18
1360;Greek;Orthodox;clerks;;;;4
1360;Greek;Orthodox;craftsmen;;;;14
1360;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;34

1360;Turkish;Jewish;clergymen;;;;1
1360;Turkish;Jewish;capitalists;;;;8
1360;Turkish;Jewish;clerks;;;;2
1360;Turkish;Jewish;farmers;;;;2

1032;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1
1034;Armenian;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;2
1034;Armenian;Orthodox;craftsmen;;;;3
1034;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;9
1035;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1
1036;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1

1320;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1
1380;Armenian;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;2
1380;Armenian;Orthodox;capitalists;;;;7
1378;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1
1379;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;3
1380;Armenian;Orthodox;farmers;;;;12

1320;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1
1353;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;3
1378;Greek;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;2
1378;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;5
1379;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;1
1380;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;2

1028;Greek;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;3
1028;Greek;Orthodox;craftsmen;;;;2
1028;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;15
1030;Greek;Orthodox;craftsmen;;;;1
1030;Greek;Orthodox;farmers;;;;8

1042;Turkish;Sunni;farmers;;;;36

1384;Turkish;Sunni;clergymen;;;;1
1384;Turkish;Sunni;farmers;;;;8

1384;Turkish;Jewish;capitalists;;;;4
1384;Turkish;Jewish;craftsmen;;;;12

1411;Turkish;Sunni;farmers;;;;120
1411;Turkish;Sunni;soldiers;;;;5
1411;Turkish;Sunni;craftsmen;;;;6

1411;Kurdish;Sunni;farmers;;;;100
1411;Kurdish;Sunni;soldiers;;;;5

1401;Turkish;Sunni;clerks;;;;1
1401;Turkish;Sunni;labourers;;;;1
1401;Turkish;Sunni;clergymen;;;;3

1414;Kurdish;Sunni;farmers;;;;10
1414;Turkish;Sunni;farmers;;;;5

1392;Turkish;Sunni;officers;;;;1
1392;Turkish;Sunni;clergymen;;;;2
1392;Turkish;Sunni;aristocrats;;;;1
1392;Turkish;Sunni;farmers;;;;2

1392;Turkish;Jewish;farmers;;;;20
1392;Turkish;Jewish;clerks;;;;2

1382;Turkish;Sunni;soldiers;;;;2
1382;Turkish;Sunni;farmers;;;;35
1383;Turkish;Sunni;soldiers;;;;2
1383;Turkish;Sunni;farmers;;;;35

1037;Arabic;Orthodox;aristocrats;;;;1
1037;Arabic;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;1
1037;Arabic;Orthodox;farmers;;;;10
1038;Arabic;Orthodox;aristocrats;;;;2
1038;Arabic;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;2
1038;Arabic;Orthodox;farmers;;;;20
1042;Arabic;Orthodox;clergymen;;;;1
1042;Arabic;Orthodox;farmers;;;;20


I have reduced/chopped down the total amout of POP's and their sizes to avoid giving Ottoman Empire and early advantage in the game, but still tried to preserve the diversity of the Anatolian geography of the 19th Century. This diversity was the fuel that burned the engines of trade and the minorities were backbone of Turkish commerce. Adding them to the original game files should reflect the atmosphere much better than the current version. I tried to balance the minority revolt risk by trying to put in clergymen wherever possible to help them stay conservative for as long as they can. But unhappiness should eventually rise with time among non-moslem population. Sefardic Jews however in real life stayed extremely loyal to the Ottomans and in time became a part of the community only with the difference that they kept their religion. So i changed their culture to Turkish (some of them even chose Turkish names themselves and felt pretty comfortable living with Turks) to avoid them revolting just for game-play issues. They are still Jews. One has to bear in mind that Turkey has been a safe haven for Jews all through history. Ottomans sent their fleet to bring Jewish refugees from Spanish inquisition to Constantinople in 1492. So i believe it wouldn't be a huge mistake to consider these people as Jewish Turks after 400 years of living together in peace while there were many anti-Jewish pogroms going on all across Europe (i'm not even mentioning WWII). I only didn't wan't to change Jews in Jerusalem, bearing in mind, some of them were late comers from Europe, with a slight possibility of having their own agenda. The Orthodox Arabs represent Syrians, Nestorians and various other Christian groups that are closer to Orthodox faith. Unfortunately there are not many religions in the game.

 

[OHgamer]

IIRC the transfer of Crete from Ottoman to Greek control wasn't a quick affair either. The 4-power supervision of Crete (which was still I believe considered part of the OE, though need to confirm that) started in 1898 and lasted until the final Greek annexation in 1913 in wake of the Balkan wars. Not sure the best way to mod this - best would be to create a separate Crete - perhaps as an Ottoman satellite (?) that would then achieve enosis in 1913 by event. Just an idea.

 

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Amazed!

Hi all,

Tunch Khan,

I am amazed at how much specific data you have found on locations for Pops in Anatolia! Do you feel that Eastern Anatolia, towards the Persian border is too heavily populated? Some of the south eastern provinces have more people than
the west coast provinces. Is that correct?

Mike

 

[Halibutt]

This might be the case as almost whole Vicky world is either overpopulated or underpopulated. What was the date of the first reliable census on these lands?
Cheers