VIP - Ottoman Empire

[unmerged(255)]

Ottoman Empire to Turan

Ideas for pre-requisites and events

I`ll start off with stating right off the bat that, in Pan-Turkic thought, Turan was more than any patch of land and was indeed an idea. So in my humble opinion, both the prerequisites and the event list for the creation of Turan should reflect that.

Some initial points:

* A big factor should be the literacy rate. Enough people within the OE must be familiar with Pan-Turkic ideals and that requires a good education system. We can decide on a fixed percentage later on.

* The government type, ideally, should be constitutional monarchy with a right-wing party in charge. A strong imperial figure (Kaan) combined with the senate (Kurultay) should provide the backbone for Turan.

* I thought hard about this, but maybe the creation of Turan should exclude Muslim provinces with an Arabic majority. How do you feel about this? Maybe major revolts can be triggered in these provinces, as a response to the creation of a Turkic state to replace the Islamic one which OE certainly was?

* A certain number of clerk and soldier POPs could also be a pre-requisite

I haven`t given much thought to the actual events themselves, but I`m envisioning a period of several decades of friction, unrest and events before Turan is established, resulting in claims in Central Asia and perhaps increased rate of assimilation and emmigration of non-Turkic POPs.

 

[Grosshaus]

So I guess we need one of these:

government = { country = [tag] type = [ruling party ideology] } # No country field means 'this country'
policy = { country = [tag] type = [policy type] } # No country field means 'this country'
ruling_party = [party id]

Perhaps the easiest way would be to make it happen if conservatives or reactionary are in power?

And then this:

constitution = { country = [tag] type = [democracy/constitutional_monarchy/monarchy/presidential_dictatorship/proletarian_dictatorship] } # No country field means 'this country'

To monarchy or constitutional monarchy

The amount of certain pops or literacy rate aren't around as triggers, but could the same be represented by requiring certain tech level?

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
But we are talking only about what the situation was in 1835, right?

If that`s the case, by all means yes, in 1835 OE was in a worse position than it had been two centuries earlier in terms of education. Mid 19th century corresponds to the era of modernization and the establishment of secular schools for engineering, social sciences etc.

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
The amount of certain pops or literacy rate aren't around as triggers, but could the same be represented by requiring certain tech level?

That sounds like a good option actually. Nationalism & Imperialism, Romanticism and Idealism in culture techs can all serve as prerequisites--other techs, perhaps early railroads, banking and organized factories could also be used as such.

 

[unmerged(18269)]

OE needs a couple new events.

1. London conference where Muhamed Ali is forced to cut down his army and cough up Syria but keep Egypt.
So in game turns the Egyptians are forced to'disarm' and give up Greater Syria and pay indemidies(I would say make them satelite/dominion too but its not like the Ottoman Sultan had much say in what happens in the Khadives court)

2. Bulgarian massacre/creation of Bulgaria.


3. Tanzimat events. The ones that are in the game now are retarded. OE as a constituitional Monarchy ? OE gets "Germany" advisors to create mass divisions ?
Only after the CUP coup and that was more of a presidential dictatorship then anything else.

4. Why is Iraq or Syria viewed as colonies ?!

 

[Grosshaus]

Originally posted by AlexanderG
2. Bulgarian massacre/creation of Bulgaria.

Originally posted by Dark Knight
There will not be any kind of "extermination of minorities" or "ethnic cleansing" in Victoria. Thus, there is no need to ask about their presence in the game. People who continue to do so will be warned and, if they persist, banned

From board rules, so focus on the creation of Bulgaria.

 

[unmerged(18269)]

Very well.
Change the word "massacre" to "revolt"

It should work like this.
"Bulgarians revolt"
OE.
Britain
"Those Brutal Turks"

Then there should be a general congress of Berlin type event.
However it shouldnt have a specific date.
Rather if Russia is occupying most of European Turkey it should kick up. Russia has the two choices. "Back down" It gets the provinces it 'won' which then automaticly are turned into Bulgaria.
"Fight on" a giant Bulgaria covering the all of Macedonia is created as Russian satelite BUT then Russia has to fight Austria,France, and England.

 

[Grosshaus]

Wasn't Russia one of the main opposers of a massive Bulgaria? I thought they just wanted to create a bunch of small satellites instead of one bigger one.

 

[unmerged(18269)]

Nope. San Sefarno(spelling!) was a treaty that created a giant Bulgaria that stretched from the black to the aegean sea.

 

[Grosshaus]

According to this website (http://bulrefsite.entrewave.com/view/bulrefsite/s129p139.htm) Russia did try several times to limit Bulgarian influence, but all of them happened after San Sefarno. So you are correct. BTW the site seemed to quite neutral and precise (in issues non-religious at least), it might help you a lot.

One minor overall tweak to Bulgaria might be to change the party names to Bulgarian instead of Moderates, Liberals etc. Anybody who speaks Bulgarian here?

 

[Conrad]

I have just discovered this thread.

Good job!!

Do you plan to include Catholic Armenians?
There were plenty of them in Cilicia and they were in majority in Artvin.

Conrad

 

[unmerged(255)]

It's San Stefano

And yes, Russia did try to limit Bulgarian influence in the region only -after- the Berlin Congress, uptil that point, Russian plans were to create a greater Bulgaria, stretching from Dobruja to the north, Aegean sea to the south and Albania to the west. I have the maps of proposed boundaries of Greater Bulgaria but got no scanner

 

[Elias Tarfarius]

I just saw that there is no event for the Ottomans to join the Central powers in 1915. It really would be a big help to me to get Russia of my back o .

 

[Jayavarman]

Originally posted by Elias Tarfarius
I just saw that there is no event for the Ottomans to join the Central powers in 1915. It really would be a big help to me to get Russia of my back o .

That is because Paradox went with scenario-specific events philosophy, ie if you play GC, world would be so different that it would be illogical to get Great War events at end of game.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Additional major event suggestions:

- 1840 London Peace Treaty (Britain, Austria, Prussia, Russia, Turkey, Egypt) -> Syria and Hedjaz to Turkey

- 1845 Educational Reform Act -> compulsory primary schools increase literacy

- Better Crimean War events and Paris Peace Treaty

- 1856 Birth of Ottoman Bank beginning of getting foreign loans.

- Better Rumanian unification events

- 1861 Sacred Lands Event and possible creation of a satellite christian Lebanon state depending on regime etc.

- 1862 Belgrade Event

- 1867 Abdulaziz's Grand Tour of Europe

- 1868 Crete Event that may trigger an event of war with Greece depending on choices. (Greece choses)

- 1875 Bosnian Revolt

- 1876 Bulgarian Revolt

- 1876 Salonica Event

- 1876 Assassination of Abdulaziz Event (a very doubtful suicide)

- 1876 Serbian DoW and Russian ultimatum that leads to Russo-Turkish War

- Gain alliance with Britain in return for Cyprus event, triggers Berlin Treaty

- 1878 Berlin Treaty Event

- Abolition of Constitution Event

- 1881 France occupies Tunis Event

- 1881 Trial of Midhat Pasa Event

- 1881 Bankruptcy and the Establishment of "Duyun-u Umumiye" after 242 million Turkish Pounds of debt.

- 1882 Britain gains sovereign status over Egypt, Ottomans loose it.

- 1890 Frigate "Ertugrul" visits Japan -> Turko-Japanese Pact signed against Russia.

- 1895 Armenian Rebellion and acts of terrorism, raid on Ottoman Bank

- 1897 Cretan Independence (annexed by Greece in 1908, should be a Greek and Crete event)

- 1902 Young Turk congress held in Paris

- 1905 Belgian anarchist bombs Abdulhamid's conwoy

- 1908 Young Turk Revolution -> CUP to power

- 1908 "31 March" Islamic counter-revolution and its end ->CUP's Reign of Terror

- 1910 Berlin-Baghdad Railway Event

- 1911 Turko-Italian War on Libya Event

- 1912 Ouchy Peace Treaty with Italy -> Libya and Dodecanese to Italy

- 1912 Balkan Wars events

- 1914 Britain seizes two Ottoman drednaughts event -> relation with Britain drops, triggers:

- 1914 two German battleships raise Ottoman flag, bomb Russia event (if Germany at war with Russia) -> Ottomans join central powers

- 1915 Armenian Deportation Event (to be discussed maybe)

- Depending on expansions direction gain Azeri and Turkmeni cultures event

- Depending on CUP's choises on nationalism or Ottomanism loose Arabic and Kurdish (Kurdish should be in at first place) cultures -> Arabic and Kurdish Rebellions

- Treaty of Sevres Event triggers independent Turkey tag with capital in Ankara

- If Russia is communist Turkey becomes communist and gains Russian alliance against Greeks, Britain etc. (to be discussed)


Please add your comments and additions so we can start working on these events one by one soon.

 

[Gezz Inti]

triggers

Hi Tunch,

I'm not a modder and I don't even have Victoria yet, but I have a general concern inspired by your nice list of major events. I use EEP in EU II and I like it very much, but I have the feeling that the events are too "hardcoded" in a way. History changed by player should have more effect in preventing certain events to form. No, I'm not gonna drift away to a EEP discussion... I just wanted to speak out for more restrictive trigger conditions for VIP events. I'm aware that a lot of events would sleep away in the most of the games, which is probably frustrating for the modders. The creation of a big palette of events/alt. events would be the solution (and a heck of fun in gameplay terms), but I'm also aware that your workload would skyrocket. Nevertheless, this seems to be the most elegant solution to me.
Just my toughts and don't be angry for me wishing while you are working... o

 

[Tunch Khan]

Re: triggers

Originally posted by Gezz Inti
Hi Tunch,

I'm not a modder and I don't even have Victoria yet, but I have a general concern inspired by your nice list of major events. I use EEP in EU II and I like it very much, but I have the feeling that the events are too "hardcoded" in a way. History changed by player should have more effect in preventing certain events to form. No, I'm not gonna drift away to a EEP discussion... I just wanted to speak out for more restrictive trigger conditions for VIP events. I'm aware that a lot of events would sleep away in the most of the games, which is probably frustrating for the modders. The creation of a big palette of events/alt. events would be the solution (and a heck of fun in gameplay terms), but I'm also aware that your workload would skyrocket. Nevertheless, this seems to be the most elegant solution to me.
Just my toughts and don't be angry for me wishing while you are working... o

i wish more people would make nice comments like you since they are encouraging me and other modders here to work harder. =)))

 

[unmerged(18269)]

1882 Britain gains sovereign status over Egypt, Ottomans loose it.

Maybe.
But the Ottomans had very limited controls over the Khadives so Iam not sure how this can be handled.

 

[Gezz Inti]

Re: Re: triggers

Originally posted by Tunch Khan
i wish more people would make nice comments like you since they are encouraging me and other modders here to work harder. =)))

Oh, that's great to hear. I hope to get Victoria "one day" and then I really would like to throw in ideas and comments on VIP. I also consider to learn to mod myself -> if RL would allow it ... We'll see.

(Just yesterday night I dreamt about an Archeopteryx event taking place in 1860 - when the ur-bird was discovered. I'm spending far too much time on this forum :wacko: The anticipation will drive me mad.)

 

[OHgamer]

Originally posted by AlexanderG
Maybe.
But the Ottomans had very limited controls over the Khadives so Iam not sure how this can be handled.

Currently the Ottomans don't have any control over Egypt (which was de facto correct, even if de jure Egypt was an Ottoman province ruled by the hereditary khedives). I'd suggest a series of events to reflect the Urabi Revolt in Egypt in 1881 that leads to UK intervention, perhaps a short war and once certain provinces fall (Cairo and Alexandria) make Egypt a UK satellite, with the territory around the canal perhaps going directly to the UK. Satellite status is, I think, a good way to depict protectorates like what Egypt became in 1881.