VIP - Ottoman Empire

[Tunch Khan]

So did someone figure a way how i can fix my Mejid's Reforms event? Aren't the vanilla events included in Vic's newest version?

 

[OHgamer]

So did someone figure a way how i can fix my Mejid's Reforms event? Aren't the vanilla events included in Vic's newest version?

Did you not see my reply in 0.3 Comments?

It has been reworked and tweaked to fit into the Eastern Question events - it is now the Imperial Rescript Of Gulhane - The Price of European Support event. There was a major problem with the original event, it fired too early and made the Ottomans too reformed than they were in 1839-1840 at the start of the Tanzimat (for ex made the Ottomans a constitutional monarchy with a multi-party system, which it most clearly wasn't. After 1839 power remained in the hands of Abdul Mecid's Tanzimat ministers who allowed no public input into shaping their reform program. It also gave the Ottomans a slew of military divisions at no cost which it should not get all at once). Now the event triggers IF the Egyptians are winning the initial conflict in 1839 (occupy 3% of TUR territory). If the Ottomans were defeating EGY then there would have not been the pressure to seek Euro help and hence no need to "reform" the system (reforms would have not been likely until the Russians started to cause trouble and TUR would need Euro help). Europe would intervene to prevent TUR from taking over Egypt, but if TUR is in a strong military position it would not have had to issue reforms to gain European support.

All the changes I made (and apologies if this was your event, it was not attributed to anyone at the time I reworked it IIRC) are by commenting out, so just decomment the changes and change it from being part of a chain to being a standalone event).

 

[Tunch Khan]

Did you not see my reply in 0.3 Comments?

No i missed it i'm sorry.

All the changes I made (and apologies if this was your event, it was not attributed to anyone at the time I reworked it IIRC) are by commenting out, so just decomment the changes and change it from being part of a chain to being a standalone event).

No need to apology at all, it wasn't my event and even if it had been so, i always like your ideas better.

However, there's something peculiar occupying my mind here; you and much of the western historians, i believe, tend to see Ottoman reforms as a result of Western pressure. Even in this modern day, the latest Turkish reforms are being perceived as if they are solely for the purpose of a possible EU membership and nothing else. In my opinion on the other hand, Turks just like to be pushed in order to make something happen on time while their heavy conservative bureaucracy is slowing things down. This does not mean that Turks are anti-modernist fanatics and there is no Turkish/Ottoman statesman who is for and supporting such reforms. Had the west not pressured Ottoman Empire back then, there would eventually be some sort of reforms and perhaps much refined ones than the actual premature model which ended in disaster. As a matter of fact, Mustafa Kemal's reforms are the latest waves of the Turkish/Ottoman reform movement that actually started lo_ong before Mejid's reign. Therefore i'd humbly suggest to consider an event that even when Europeans are not supporting Ottos, it should enable, perhaps on a later date, some sort of a reform act. Maybe a different model and again based on multiple choices giving the player a free hand.

 

[OHgamer]

However, there's something peculiar occupying my mind here; you and much of the western historians, i believe, tend to see Ottoman reforms as a result of Western pressure. Even in this modern day, the latest Turkish reforms are being perceived as if they are solely for the purpose of a possible EU membership and nothing else. In my opinion on the other hand, Turks just like to be pushed in order to make something happen on time while their heavy conservative bureaucracy is slowing things down. This does not mean that Turks are anti-modernist fanatics and there is no Turkish/Ottoman statesman who is for and supporting such reforms. Had the west not pressured Ottoman Empire back then, there would eventually be some sort of reforms and perhaps much refined ones than the actual premature model which ended in disaster. As a matter of fact, Mustafa Kemal's reforms are the latest waves of the Turkish/Ottoman reform movement that actually started lo_ong before Mejid's reign. Therefore i'd humbly suggest to consider an event that even when Europeans are not supporting Ottos, it should enable, perhaps on a later date, some sort of a reform act. Maybe a different model and again based on multiple choices giving the player a free hand.

Oh I agree that had the Ottomans had a more favorable environment in which to develop their society in the 19th C the pressures for reform would have grown to the point where some "modernization" would have been undertaken. But unfortunately that would be more in the realm of alternative history and I think in the case of Gulhane it is pretty clear that the motivations for issuing the decree arose from Reşit Paşa's belief that it was vital in order to ensure British support in the struggle against Muhammad Ali. A future alternative history event is definitely possible, though there is alot of actual history that still needs to be included first, I think, before moving to that stage of development of the mod.

 

[Tunch Khan]

So if the Ottos choose not to seek European support in the Oriental crisis, (since that option is given in the events) they should not reform at all even in the future? Because by this current set of events there is no chance for any other reform event until the end of the game.

 

[Generalisimo]

So if the Ottos choose not to seek European support in the Oriental crisis, (since that option is given in the events) they should not reform at all even in the future? Because by this current set of events there is no chance for any other reform event until the end of the game.

you can always reform on your own...

 

[Tunch Khan]

you can always reform on your own...

I wish that would give me 8 divisions as well

 

[Generalisimo]

I wish that would give me 8 divisions as well

Then press the "Increase mobilization" button too... that will give you 5 not 8, but it is something...

 

[OHgamer]

So if the Ottos choose not to seek European support in the Oriental crisis, (since that option is given in the events) they should not reform at all even in the future? Because by this current set of events there is no chance for any other reform event until the end of the game.

There are the 1856 Reform events (Hatt-i Humayun) still IIRC.

 

[Tunch Khan]

There are the 1856 Reform events (Hatt-i Humayun) still IIRC.

I didn't get them. Which event text is it?

 

[Gezz Inti]

Another superficicial statistic...

... is suggesting almost the same: 15-20 % Alevis.
The link for Southeast European Times.

I'm still seeking info on provincial base, but I'm not very optimistic.

But I'd like to repeat my two questions:
1- How big is the possibility to add Alevis (not Shiites)?
2- How much info do we need to change the POPs?

 

[OHgamer]

... is suggesting almost the same: 15-20 % Alevis.
The link for Southeast European Times.

I'm still seeking info on provincial base, but I'm not very optimistic.

But I'd like to repeat my two questions:
1- How big is the possibility to add Alevis (not Shiites)?
2- How much info do we need to change the POPs?

I guess what do you want to call the Alevis - there are only a few set religion tags in Victoria, so if they are not Sunni and not Shiite, then what...pagan? (this is actually what we have done to mod the Sikhs in India, they are Panjabi Pagans. They weren't Sunnis, they weren't Hindus and there is no Sikh choice. It's not at all historical to call them Pagan but it does at least reflect a large third religious community, which actually controlled political power, at the time of the start of the GC in Panjab.)

On the second point, find as many studies by historians on the Alevis in the 19th Century as you can and see what they say about the Alevi population. Preferably have historians from both within the society (Turkish/Alevi) and outside western historians. of course any census material would be the best, but Ottoman records are shaky at best and I don't believe they counted Alevis as separate, but don't quote me on that point.

 

[OHgamer]

I didn't get them. Which event text is it?

Event 1107 in the Ottoman File of VIPscen\events\vanilla.

Fires starting in 1856 if RUS defeats TUR in a war.

Event could probalby use some rework - it hasn't been touched since its vanilla form.

 

[Gezz Inti]

I guess what do you want to call the Alevis - there are only a few set religion tags in Victoria, so if they are not Sunni and not Shiite, then what...pagan? (this is actually what we have done to mod the Sikhs in India, they are Panjabi Pagans. They weren't Sunnis, they weren't Hindus and there is no Sikh choice. It's not at all historical to call them Pagan but it does at least reflect a large third religious community, which actually controlled political power, at the time of the start of the GC in Panjab.)

So, I assume that it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to customize a tag and label it "Alevi". Right? Quite sad. The same goes for the Sikhs of course...
So if we have to chose between Sunni (unthinkable for an Alevi person), Shii (problematic) and Pagan (!!), we will most probably finally stick with Shii. They are at least on the same side in the conflict between Ali and the Muawiyah. The distinction in customs, culture, etc. is not related to the sources of Shiism. In other words; it's safe to claim that Alevism evolved out of Shiism and still shares elemental premises.

On the second point, find as many studies by historians on the Alevis in the 19th Century as you can and see what they say about the Alevi population. Preferably have historians from both within the society (Turkish/Alevi) and outside western historians. of course any census material would be the best, but Ottoman records are shaky at best and I don't believe they counted Alevis as separate, but don't quote me on that point.

I'll see...

 

[Gezz Inti]

Hmm, I just wanted to say that all of the sites I found state the same proportion for Alevis. I found 8 or 9 sites, which I don't want to list all now - just one example: http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/turkeyg.htm

I won't spam you further on this ratio. Searching still for concrete numbers.. :wacko:

 

[unmerged(14905)]

Why the tsar of all the slavs event relocate the turk capital in Ankara? Wasnt this city a minor one until the new turk state choose it as capital?
In the Vic timeframe wasnt cities like Karaman or Izmir more "relevant" centers?

 

[Kurdistani]

Why the tsar of all the slavs event relocate the turk capital in Ankara? Wasnt this city a minor one until the new turk state choose it as capital?
In the Vic timeframe wasnt cities like Karaman or Izmir more "relevant" centers?

Is Bursa on the Map (or Izmit)? Bursa was the second capital of the Empire (after Sogut) maybe it would be second capital or may be there should be a choice? Bursa or Ankara

 

[aprof]

Is Bursa on the Map (or Izmit)? Bursa was the second capital of the Empire (after Sogut) maybe it would be second capital or may be there should be a choice? Bursa or Ankara

Izmit = prov 995
Bursa = prov 996

 

[Kurdistani]

Hey what about an event for the Lebanon crisis of the 1860...
For anyone who does not know what this was... It was when the Christian and Muslim communities in Lebanon started the fight with each other....
The French interevened and an autonomy agreement was signed...

Lebanon Crisis


1. Grant Lebanon autonomy
(Create Lebannon as a satillite of OE)
relations with France +15
Militancy of Muslims OE +1
prestige +3

2.Leave it to the French
(Create Lebannon as a satillite of France)
relations with France +50
Militancy of Muslims OE +2
Pestige -10

3.Assert central control
relations with France -30
relations with Britain -30
Militancy of Muslims OE -1
Conciousness of Muslims OE +1
Militancy of Othodox OE +1
Militancy of Catholics OE +1
Revolt in Lebanon
prestige -2

 

[Kurdistani]

How about this event to add some falvour to the Ottomans?

####################
# Mekteb-i Ashiret - by Kurdistani
####################


event = {
	id = xxxxx
	random = no
	country = TUR

	name = "Mekteb-i Ashiret"
	desc = " In 1892 the Ottoman government set up the Mekteb-i Ashiret (tribal school) to educate the children of Arabic and Kurdish tribal leaders in the ways of Ottoman civilisation. The school open its doors on October 3rd 1892."
	style = 0

	date = { day = 3 month = october year = 1892 }

action_a = { name = "Free them from cehl ve nadaniyet!"
		command = { type = pop_militancy which = kurdish value = -1 }
                command = { type = pop_militancy which = arabic value = -1 }
                command = { type = pop_consciousness which = kurdish value = 1 }
                command = { type = pop_consciousness which = arabic value = 1 }
		command = {type = prestige value = 1 }
                command = { type = treasury value = -500}
}
}